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thank you

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[Music]

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welcome back everybody it is great to be

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here for another show it's good to see

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everybody in the live chat

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um please keep the conversation polite

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and cordial as you always do I really

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appreciate that it just helps for

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everything running smoothly if you do

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have any questions throughout the show

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please pop them in capital letters I'm

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more likely to then see them and I will

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try and ask them

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when it's relevant to the conversation

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um we are going to be covering some

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classic sort of older cases here today

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so yeah I think that's everything Let's

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uh let's get started I'm going to

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welcome my guest who's now a regular as

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always

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please welcome

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Dr David Clark David how are you I'm

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fine thank you here we are again oh yeah

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we're here to talk about a different

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case again which is always good yep

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so it's September so we're actually in

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the month celebrating 70 years of the

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kind of stuff we're going to be talking

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about today so I think let's just start

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at the start of that kind of year and

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and what happened and if you can give us

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some context to how it all came about

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and the implications that'd be great

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yeah well um as you know um it's 70

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years

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um anniversary of the this classic case

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the top Cliff case that we're going to

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be talking about tonight and just just

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to sort of set the general context I

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mean given what's what's happened with

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the death of Queen and Elizabeth II

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um last week it was a similar situation

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back then because 70 years ago her

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father George uh sixth had died I think

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it was in March 1952 so she'd become

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Queen uh even though she wasn't crowned

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until the following year so there was

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all that going on

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um there was also the sort of um we've

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got a new Cold War now that's that's

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going on with Russia having invaded

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Ukraine but back then 1952 1953 was

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right at the the height of the original

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um Cold War tension and you know it was

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if you read the papers and the media at

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the time there was similar levels of

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anxiety there were similar sort of

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worries about a nuclear war kicking off

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um and don't forget this was only seven

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years after the end of the second world

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war and there was an awful lot of um

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people um people who were still enrolled

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in the uh the military services there

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were still national service my father

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was in the Navy at the time people were

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still doing like the what they had to do

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for national service there were a huge

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amount of aircraft flying around in the

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skies and military aircraft

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um exercises and operation main brace

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I've seen it described as operation

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members and exercise main brace I'm not

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sure which is the correct one

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um but what that was was like this

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massive NATO exercise to simulate a

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Soviet attack on Western Europe and it

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was primarily a sort of um a naval

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exercise so you had I think there was

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I've got the actual um original press

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release somewhere here in my pile oh

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here we go yeah press announcement a

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large scale exercise will be conducted

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on Europe's Northern flank this Autumn

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was ships planes and Men of nations of

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the North Atlantic Treaty Organization

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participating so it was a 13-day

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exercise codename main brace it began on

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September the 3rd and there were more

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than 150 warships hundreds of aircraft

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um taking part anti-submarine Convoy

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operations military forces of Canada

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Denmark France Netherlands Norway

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Portugal United Kingdom and United

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States all participating so you can

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imagine a huge build up

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um to what was going on and um

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as I say um

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setting it in the context of of the UFO

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phenomenon

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um earlier in the year the United States

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Air Force had rekindled or reignited

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their UFO investigation which had become

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Project Blue Book and that was as a

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result of a really big wave of sightings

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that were literally reports from all

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over the globe many sort of military

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incidents during the summer

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June and July they've been the massive

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flap over Washington DC that probably

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most people here will will know about or

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have come across

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um

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either in books or online you know there

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was there was um f-18s scrambled to

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intercept objects that have been seen on

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radar over the American Capital

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um

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this became such a huge thing that there

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was a massive press conference at um at

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Washington one of the biggest since the

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end of the second world war where

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Colonel I think in George and Samford

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had to go on TV and sort of explain what

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the U.S authorities were doing CIA got

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interested for the probably for the

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first time properly and started looking

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at the whole subject from the point of

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view of psychological warfare and all

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the reports that have been in the media

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about this got our prime minister at

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that time Winston Churchill

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interested in the subject and he he

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fired off that famous memo to the air

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Ministry basically saying what's all

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this stuff about flying sources you know

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tell me the truth and he was given a

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summary of this study that had been done

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in 1950 the flying source of working

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party which we will return to that some

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military sightings including a very

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interesting sighting by a guy called

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Stan Hubbard who was one of the RAS top

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test pilots who I got to interview 20

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years ago and he told this amazing story

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about a really close sighting of of a

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UFO that he'd had at farnborough

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Airfield in 1950

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um that's that's done um in the cockpit

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of one of these um

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planes and I think he I remember him

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telling me that the day he saw this or

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the day before he'd seen this thing he'd

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flown a German feisless starch

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which those of you are sort of aircraft

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enthusiasts may remember it's a famous

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song It's a plain iconic German plane

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from the second world war it's one of

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the planes that we captured from the

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Germans and he was one of the test

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pilots who

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um were involved in basically

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deconstructing and finding out what the

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Germans had after the war so

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um we'll talk about his sighting and all

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this is building up to um September the

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19th 20th 1952 which is when exercise

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main race was underway there were all

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these ships

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um in the North Atlantic they were um

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air Crew moving around to all different

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bases and the other interesting thing

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was it was also the 12th anniversary of

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the Battle of Britain so um

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a lot lots and lots of RAF planes out

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doing aerobatics and demonstrations over

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various airfields in England and Wales

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so a lot going on in the sky and then

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our friends the UFOs decided to put in a

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so

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I suppose it's best to start off with

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the top Cliff case itself then so yeah

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where's the best place to start I mean

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there is a lot of intricacies to the

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case itself so you know I've got some

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documents and images to show so if at

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any point they become relevant just let

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me know and I'll I'll pop them on screen

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yeah well let's let's have the um the um

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the document where um flight Lieutenant

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Kilburn John Kilburn who's the key

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witness

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um unfortunately John had um passed away

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before I got um before I started doing

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these investigations I mean I tried to

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track him down around the year 2000

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about 22 years ago and I think he'd

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recently died I contacted it I spoke to

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a member of his family and it was like

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oh I wish you'd drunk five years ago you

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could have told you the whole story so

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he was like one of the few people I

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wasn't able to interview but his

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statement which we'll see now

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269 Squadron yeah he was um

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um our it was in the Raf in the second

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world war

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um and he was in number 269 Squadron

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which was a Shackleton Squadron

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um early morning one of these um

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aircraft that they used for early

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warning that were part of the exercise

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um and there was a whole bunch of men um

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from that Squadron 269 it would normally

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base to RF Bali Kelly in Northern

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Ireland and they'd flown to Yorkshire

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for main Breeze and they were actually

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on the ground I don't know what they

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were doing they were waiting to be sort

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of scrambled or take off in the

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shackletons and nice player days a bit

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like the weather we've had over the last

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few weeks before it turned

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um Place guys

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um

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and I don't think it was Kilburn he

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actually said well probably best reading

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you what he says this is the statement

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he made to the air Ministry which is one

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of the few um bits of um UFO Reporting

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from the RAF that's actually survived

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um over the years and he I love this

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because it's written in you know that

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old-fashioned language that people used

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to speak in the 1950s when they were

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making an official reports I have the

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honor to report the following incident

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which I witnessed

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on Friday the 19th of September now I I

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understand from some of the other

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sources because there's a signal as well

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that we'll look at um this was around

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just before 11 o'clock in the morning

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and he was standing with four of his

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colleagues from number 269 Squadron on

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the um

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on the on I think outside the the

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control tower RAF top Cliff which is a a

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World War II um station in in North

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Yorkshire not far from the A1 I mean I I

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was on holiday in North Yorkshire a few

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weeks ago and I drift right past it I

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think it's still used for training RAF

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Cadets that will use it anyway it was

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very different in 1952 you can imagine

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there'd be aircraft all over the runway

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and lots of people in uniform everywhere

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waiting for some kind of um call to take

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part in this operation so he was

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standing there he was looking at the um

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sky and they were actually watching a

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meteor jet that was descending

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um towards not top Cliff but dish first

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which is another

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Aerodrome not far away probably no more

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than two or three miles away and he says

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in his statement that the meteor was at

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approximately 5 000 feet and approaching

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from the East flight Lieutenant Paris

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who um is another one of the key

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Witnesses who were there with him it was

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him who actually noticed a white object

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in the sky at a height between 10 and 20

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000 feet some five miles of stern of the

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meteor so something much higher in the

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sky brilliant Whiting color initially it

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then appeared to be silver and circular

277
00:11:40,130 --> 00:11:38,100
as they watched it and it was traveling

278
00:11:43,250 --> 00:11:40,140
at a much slower speed than the meteor

279
00:11:44,930 --> 00:11:43,260
but on a similar course so he says in

280
00:11:47,690 --> 00:11:44,940
his statement he maintained the slow

281
00:11:49,550 --> 00:11:47,700
forward speed for a few seconds before

282
00:11:51,590 --> 00:11:49,560
it began to descend and this is the

283
00:11:54,170 --> 00:11:51,600
interesting bit because it it descended

284
00:11:56,930 --> 00:11:54,180
in the classic sort of you know like a

285
00:11:59,329 --> 00:11:56,940
Sycamore leaf falling from a tree not

286
00:12:03,650 --> 00:11:59,339
like any normal aircraft would behave

287
00:12:05,449 --> 00:12:03,660
like a Falling Leaf motion and at first

288
00:12:07,370 --> 00:12:05,459
when they saw it they thought it was

289
00:12:09,350 --> 00:12:07,380
something that had come that separated

290
00:12:10,970 --> 00:12:09,360
from the meteor you know like a piece of

291
00:12:13,670 --> 00:12:10,980
cowling from the engine or something

292
00:12:15,410 --> 00:12:13,680
like that or like some sort of exhaust

293
00:12:17,810 --> 00:12:15,420
you know maybe the engine was on fire

294
00:12:20,030 --> 00:12:17,820
and it just sent out like some kind of

295
00:12:21,530 --> 00:12:20,040
um a cloud of vapor or something like

296
00:12:24,290 --> 00:12:21,540
that so initially we thought they were

297
00:12:26,630 --> 00:12:24,300
looking at possibly the beginning of an

298
00:12:29,269 --> 00:12:26,640
aircraft accident which is why it took

299
00:12:30,710 --> 00:12:29,279
on such an importance

300
00:12:32,810 --> 00:12:30,720
um so the thought at first it was a

301
00:12:35,030 --> 00:12:32,820
parachute or engine cowling that had

302
00:12:38,630 --> 00:12:35,040
come off the the meteor as the meteor

303
00:12:40,190 --> 00:12:38,640
turned toward dishwas the object whilst

304
00:12:41,930 --> 00:12:40,200
continuing its descent appeared to

305
00:12:43,610 --> 00:12:41,940
follow soon and then this is when they

306
00:12:46,129 --> 00:12:43,620
realized this was something totally

307
00:12:48,410 --> 00:12:46,139
unlike anything they'd ever seen before

308
00:12:50,210 --> 00:12:48,420
after a few seconds the object stopped

309
00:12:52,190 --> 00:12:50,220
its pendulum's motion and its descent

310
00:12:55,250 --> 00:12:52,200
and began to rotate so it started

311
00:13:00,290 --> 00:12:58,129
on its own axis suddenly it accelerated

312
00:13:02,210 --> 00:13:00,300
at an incredible speed towards the West

313
00:13:04,490 --> 00:13:02,220
turning onto a southeast of the heading

314
00:13:05,990 --> 00:13:04,500
before disappearing and they said it

315
00:13:08,810 --> 00:13:06,000
says that all of this happened in a

316
00:13:10,310 --> 00:13:08,820
matter of 15 to 20 seconds and the

317
00:13:12,230 --> 00:13:10,320
movements of the object were not

318
00:13:14,449 --> 00:13:12,240
identifiable with anything I have seen

319
00:13:17,449 --> 00:13:14,459
in the air and the rate of acceleration

320
00:13:20,569 --> 00:13:17,459
was unbelievable so it just zoomed off

321
00:13:22,970 --> 00:13:20,579
at some incredible speed so this whole

322
00:13:25,129 --> 00:13:22,980
bunch of um Airmen who were on the

323
00:13:27,190 --> 00:13:25,139
ground also it so a group of about 10

324
00:13:30,590 --> 00:13:27,200
people including some

325
00:13:32,389 --> 00:13:30,600
non-commissioned officers and he said um

326
00:13:34,970 --> 00:13:32,399
the weather conditions at the time were

327
00:13:39,310 --> 00:13:34,980
clear skies sunshine unlimited

328
00:13:42,129 --> 00:13:39,320
visibility so really good clear report

329
00:13:45,290 --> 00:13:42,139
from a number of different military

330
00:13:47,930 --> 00:13:45,300
Witnesses from 269 Squadron so there's

331
00:13:50,449 --> 00:13:47,940
another document I think might need to

332
00:13:52,670 --> 00:13:50,459
move on to get to that which is the

333
00:13:54,769 --> 00:13:52,680
signal that went out that's the air

334
00:13:56,870 --> 00:13:54,779
Ministry one the air Ministry signal

335
00:13:59,329 --> 00:13:56,880
these are the few Bits of Paper that

336
00:14:01,370 --> 00:13:59,339
have survived in the National Archives

337
00:14:03,230 --> 00:14:01,380
about this case this is the one this is

338
00:14:04,129 --> 00:14:03,240
a really good

339
00:14:08,150 --> 00:14:04,139
um

340
00:14:10,610 --> 00:14:08,160
piece of archive material so this is a

341
00:14:12,050 --> 00:14:10,620
signal that went out from one of the

342
00:14:13,970 --> 00:14:12,060
NATO commands

343
00:14:15,470 --> 00:14:13,980
um copied to air Ministry in London and

344
00:14:18,290 --> 00:14:15,480
one of the key things if you can see the

345
00:14:20,810 --> 00:14:18,300
bottom is who it was copied to assistant

346
00:14:23,210 --> 00:14:20,820
chief of air stuff

347
00:14:25,970 --> 00:14:23,220
um Ops assistant chief of their staff

348
00:14:27,949 --> 00:14:25,980
intelligence to copies

349
00:14:30,769 --> 00:14:27,959
um and right at the bottom you see head

350
00:14:35,210 --> 00:14:30,779
of the head of um

351
00:14:36,650 --> 00:14:35,220
Ministry of defense for DSI now DSi is

352
00:14:38,930 --> 00:14:36,660
the is the defense

353
00:14:41,389 --> 00:14:38,940
um the the scientific intelligence

354
00:14:45,050 --> 00:14:41,399
section of the ministry of Defense so

355
00:14:48,230 --> 00:14:45,060
they effectively were the forerunners of

356
00:14:50,569 --> 00:14:48,240
what became the I-55 or as everyone will

357
00:14:52,610 --> 00:14:50,579
know were the people who were involved

358
00:14:55,250 --> 00:14:52,620
in active UFO investigations from the

359
00:14:58,189 --> 00:14:55,260
1960s onwards so this is the beginning

360
00:15:00,470 --> 00:14:58,199
of it all folks this is not this is 70

361
00:15:02,810 --> 00:15:00,480
years ago and

362
00:15:06,290 --> 00:15:02,820
um seen that little scribble in the

363
00:15:08,389 --> 00:15:06,300
right bottom right hand corner yeah this

364
00:15:10,550 --> 00:15:08,399
this is a something that's been written

365
00:15:14,689 --> 00:15:10,560
on the signal saying um

366
00:15:16,850 --> 00:15:14,699
Operations Air Defense ask PA which is

367
00:15:20,090 --> 00:15:16,860
like private assistant effectively a

368
00:15:22,790 --> 00:15:20,100
secretary an open folder unidentified

369
00:15:25,370 --> 00:15:22,800
aircraft or objects reporting to air

370
00:15:27,170 --> 00:15:25,380
Ministry now that suggests that before

371
00:15:30,290 --> 00:15:27,180
this happened they didn't even have an

372
00:15:33,470 --> 00:15:30,300
active folder or file for the

373
00:15:35,150 --> 00:15:33,480
occurrences of this kind and um

374
00:15:38,329 --> 00:15:35,160
Ralph noise

375
00:15:40,850 --> 00:15:38,339
um who was the um he was the he was the

376
00:15:44,210 --> 00:15:40,860
private secretary for the vice chief of

377
00:15:46,129 --> 00:15:44,220
air stuff Ralph Cochran at the time um

378
00:15:47,930 --> 00:15:46,139
again who I interviewed in the 1990s

379
00:15:50,210 --> 00:15:47,940
when he was alive

380
00:15:52,189 --> 00:15:50,220
um he remembered seeing this signal

381
00:15:54,230 --> 00:15:52,199
because he was really high up in the mod

382
00:15:57,949 --> 00:15:54,240
I mean this is a guy who was talking

383
00:16:00,829 --> 00:15:57,959
about UFOs and the mod long before

384
00:16:03,290 --> 00:16:00,839
um anyone else and Ralph noises

385
00:16:04,970 --> 00:16:03,300
sad things no longer with us but he

386
00:16:06,769 --> 00:16:04,980
remembered being

387
00:16:08,689 --> 00:16:06,779
um it's quite a senior position in the

388
00:16:10,610 --> 00:16:08,699
air Ministry at the time and seen this

389
00:16:13,670 --> 00:16:10,620
signal come through and seeing the

390
00:16:16,930 --> 00:16:13,680
consternation it caused in the higher

391
00:16:19,790 --> 00:16:16,940
echelons of the royal Air Force I mean

392
00:16:22,009 --> 00:16:19,800
the words he used was oh my God our

393
00:16:24,610 --> 00:16:22,019
chaps have seen these things now not

394
00:16:28,250 --> 00:16:24,620
just the Americans

395
00:16:29,689 --> 00:16:28,260
so this is why I think this case or this

396
00:16:31,189 --> 00:16:29,699
series of sightings because it wasn't

397
00:16:34,670 --> 00:16:31,199
just topped with there were others as

398
00:16:36,410 --> 00:16:34,680
well it's really what got the Royal Air

399
00:16:39,829 --> 00:16:36,420
Force the ministry of defense and

400
00:16:42,590 --> 00:16:39,839
scientific intelligence interested in

401
00:16:45,769 --> 00:16:42,600
this subject and it's effectively 70

402
00:16:47,930 --> 00:16:45,779
years ago this week yeah

403
00:16:50,629 --> 00:16:47,940
pretty amazing oh

404
00:16:53,210 --> 00:16:50,639
so I'll take that off

405
00:16:55,490 --> 00:16:53,220
I just wanted to highlight

406
00:17:01,129 --> 00:16:55,500
Mr Ralph noise because we do have an old

407
00:17:06,590 --> 00:17:04,010
that's it yeah there's Ralph yeah um so

408
00:17:09,409 --> 00:17:06,600
he got to a really

409
00:17:12,110 --> 00:17:09,419
um senior assistant terminal principal

410
00:17:15,949 --> 00:17:12,120
which is very sort of senior position in

411
00:17:18,949 --> 00:17:15,959
the mod and he was at one time I think

412
00:17:23,630 --> 00:17:18,959
it was the late 1960s and early 1970s

413
00:17:26,750 --> 00:17:23,640
the head of ds8 now ds8 is what became

414
00:17:28,069 --> 00:17:26,760
the Secretary of air stuff I.E the UFO

415
00:17:30,950 --> 00:17:28,079
desk so

416
00:17:33,350 --> 00:17:30,960
he actually ran the S8 for a period of

417
00:17:35,810 --> 00:17:33,360
about five years and he got to see all

418
00:17:38,150 --> 00:17:35,820
the top secret material and I remember

419
00:17:40,370 --> 00:17:38,160
interviewing him and I think he was 1989

420
00:17:42,529 --> 00:17:40,380
or 1990 this is when I was first got

421
00:17:45,049 --> 00:17:42,539
involved in ufology and one of the

422
00:17:46,610 --> 00:17:45,059
things he told us about at that time

423
00:17:49,490 --> 00:17:46,620
which we've never been able to get to

424
00:17:52,130 --> 00:17:49,500
the bottom of is that he remembered and

425
00:17:53,630 --> 00:17:52,140
being taken to the underground Cinema in

426
00:17:56,090 --> 00:17:53,640
the ministry of Defense main building

427
00:17:59,270 --> 00:17:56,100
and at some point during his time at

428
00:18:02,630 --> 00:17:59,280
ds-8 where he was shown gun camera film

429
00:18:04,610 --> 00:18:02,640
taken by RAF Pilots of UFOs

430
00:18:06,110 --> 00:18:04,620
the things that can be identified you

431
00:18:08,150 --> 00:18:06,120
know people will have seen all the

432
00:18:10,070 --> 00:18:08,160
American U.S Navy

433
00:18:13,610 --> 00:18:10,080
um films but he said that he'd seen

434
00:18:16,610 --> 00:18:13,620
films in the late 1960s or 1970s taken

435
00:18:18,430 --> 00:18:16,620
by RAF pilots during the 1950s off

436
00:18:20,810 --> 00:18:18,440
similar things very similar you know

437
00:18:23,870 --> 00:18:20,820
Blobs of light moving at incredible

438
00:18:26,450 --> 00:18:23,880
speeds ball shaped objects exploding and

439
00:18:28,490 --> 00:18:26,460
retracting that kind of thing and

440
00:18:30,049 --> 00:18:28,500
there's actually letters from Ralph in

441
00:18:31,850 --> 00:18:30,059
the ministry of Defense files you know

442
00:18:34,850 --> 00:18:31,860
the ones that were released at the

443
00:18:36,230 --> 00:18:34,860
National Archives after he'd retired he

444
00:18:37,850 --> 00:18:36,240
wrote in

445
00:18:40,250 --> 00:18:37,860
um when he got he got personally

446
00:18:42,110 --> 00:18:40,260
interested in UFOs and when he retired

447
00:18:43,909 --> 00:18:42,120
and he wrote it he wrote a fictional

448
00:18:46,130 --> 00:18:43,919
book based upon the rendelson forest

449
00:18:47,450 --> 00:18:46,140
incident and he actually wrote in and

450
00:18:50,090 --> 00:18:47,460
said what happened to those gun camera

451
00:18:52,430 --> 00:18:50,100
films that I saw and like no one could

452
00:18:53,990 --> 00:18:52,440
no one knew because presumably being

453
00:18:56,270 --> 00:18:54,000
destroyed in the way that they destroyed

454
00:18:57,950 --> 00:18:56,280
everything else yeah

455
00:18:59,810 --> 00:18:57,960
that's something whether whether any of

456
00:19:01,549 --> 00:18:59,820
those films were from that period you

457
00:19:04,610 --> 00:19:01,559
know the top Cliff case we don't know

458
00:19:06,289 --> 00:19:04,620
but they were certainly from the 1950s

459
00:19:07,970 --> 00:19:06,299
I think

460
00:19:10,250 --> 00:19:07,980
it's frustrating when you hear things

461
00:19:12,650 --> 00:19:10,260
like that because we both know just how

462
00:19:14,870 --> 00:19:12,660
often we come across

463
00:19:16,190 --> 00:19:14,880
cases and you try and get the documents

464
00:19:18,890 --> 00:19:16,200
and it's either no they've been

465
00:19:20,570 --> 00:19:18,900
destroyed no we can't find them or some

466
00:19:24,289 --> 00:19:20,580
other boilerplate

467
00:19:25,850 --> 00:19:24,299
excuse yeah I mean I can in some ways I

468
00:19:28,370 --> 00:19:25,860
can understand why

469
00:19:30,289 --> 00:19:28,380
um film like gun camera film might not

470
00:19:34,310 --> 00:19:30,299
have survived because like radar film

471
00:19:36,350 --> 00:19:34,320
it's extremely delicate in decays

472
00:19:40,130 --> 00:19:36,360
um they have to it's so expensive that

473
00:19:41,450 --> 00:19:40,140
they recycle it they reuse it but the

474
00:19:43,310 --> 00:19:41,460
gun camera thing just for those who

475
00:19:44,810 --> 00:19:43,320
don't know what it is it's so they used

476
00:19:46,909 --> 00:19:44,820
it in the war you know when you've seen

477
00:19:49,610 --> 00:19:46,919
this classic footage of like Spitfires

478
00:19:51,409 --> 00:19:49,620
shooting down measurements you know that

479
00:19:53,930 --> 00:19:51,419
footage was taken by gun cameras which

480
00:19:56,930 --> 00:19:53,940
are cameras in the fuselage of the

481
00:19:58,610 --> 00:19:56,940
fighter aircraft which you know you like

482
00:20:01,370 --> 00:19:58,620
when you fire the machine guns you're

483
00:20:03,529 --> 00:20:01,380
firing like a gun that that takes images

484
00:20:05,690 --> 00:20:03,539
of what is influenced immediately in

485
00:20:08,270 --> 00:20:05,700
front of the aircraft so there is there

486
00:20:10,130 --> 00:20:08,280
is some stuff from the Cold War you know

487
00:20:11,690 --> 00:20:10,140
intercepting Russian aircraft and some

488
00:20:14,390 --> 00:20:11,700
of it has survived and gone to the

489
00:20:16,610 --> 00:20:14,400
Imperial War Museum but what happened to

490
00:20:19,370 --> 00:20:16,620
the UFO films I have no idea but they

491
00:20:22,909 --> 00:20:19,380
obviously did exist no doubt that Ralph

492
00:20:24,890 --> 00:20:22,919
was telling truth about what you saw

493
00:20:28,070 --> 00:20:24,900
wow

494
00:20:29,750 --> 00:20:28,080
only if only we had that actually if

495
00:20:32,029 --> 00:20:29,760
something like that it would

496
00:20:33,650 --> 00:20:32,039
certainly change the way we look at

497
00:20:35,810 --> 00:20:33,660
certain things especially here in the UK

498
00:20:38,810 --> 00:20:35,820
when it comes to the historical aspect

499
00:20:41,690 --> 00:20:38,820
of the the phenomena so

500
00:20:44,990 --> 00:20:41,700
um yes moving on I've now got a document

501
00:20:48,230 --> 00:20:45,000
here which I believe is this the CIA one

502
00:20:50,450 --> 00:20:48,240
oh H Marshall Chadwell yeah this is this

503
00:20:52,970 --> 00:20:50,460
is um I think when you put this on

504
00:20:55,430 --> 00:20:52,980
Twitter a few weeks ago people were sort

505
00:20:59,510 --> 00:20:55,440
of saying oh that's new

506
00:21:03,529 --> 00:21:01,909
it's a person in some points in that are

507
00:21:05,150 --> 00:21:03,539
really fascinating and I hadn't seen it

508
00:21:07,490 --> 00:21:05,160
before and then I realized where it had

509
00:21:09,409 --> 00:21:07,500
come from when you said so yeah well

510
00:21:11,630 --> 00:21:09,419
people don't have much success do they

511
00:21:12,890 --> 00:21:11,640
getting material out of the CIA about

512
00:21:15,710 --> 00:21:12,900
UFOs

513
00:21:18,049 --> 00:21:15,720
um but I did have a bit of success about

514
00:21:19,010 --> 00:21:18,059
20 years ago because I was talking to at

515
00:21:21,130 --> 00:21:19,020
that time

516
00:21:24,230 --> 00:21:21,140
I was in correspondence with Gerald

517
00:21:25,730 --> 00:21:24,240
Haynes who some of you may you might be

518
00:21:29,750 --> 00:21:25,740
aware he wrote to

519
00:21:31,669 --> 00:21:29,760
um quite a lengthy article for a

520
00:21:35,090 --> 00:21:31,679
um a journal called studies in

521
00:21:37,610 --> 00:21:35,100
intelligence all about the American

522
00:21:39,890 --> 00:21:37,620
intelligence interest in UFOs and he

523
00:21:43,370 --> 00:21:39,900
mentions a couple of Docs

524
00:21:45,470 --> 00:21:43,380
to Britain and one of them was this one

525
00:21:46,730 --> 00:21:45,480
so he I actually got in correspondence

526
00:21:48,289 --> 00:21:46,740
with him and he said it's never been

527
00:21:50,090 --> 00:21:48,299
released why don't you put in the

528
00:21:53,409 --> 00:21:50,100
Freedom of Information request for it so

529
00:21:56,630 --> 00:21:53,419
I did and amazingly they sent it to me

530
00:21:59,330 --> 00:21:56,640
as you can see there's a few things

531
00:22:00,409 --> 00:21:59,340
um that have been redacted

532
00:22:03,049 --> 00:22:00,419
um but

533
00:22:07,190 --> 00:22:03,059
um he's basically this is a summary for

534
00:22:09,649 --> 00:22:07,200
the um for the CIA of what the Brits

535
00:22:11,890 --> 00:22:09,659
were getting up to in the field of UFOs

536
00:22:15,770 --> 00:22:11,900
and it's written in December

537
00:22:17,810 --> 00:22:15,780
1952 so about three months after the top

538
00:22:20,210 --> 00:22:17,820
Cliff incident and it seems to be based

539
00:22:22,490 --> 00:22:20,220
upon a traveler who he doesn't identify

540
00:22:25,730 --> 00:22:22,500
as presumably an intelligence officer

541
00:22:28,970 --> 00:22:25,740
from the RAF or the ministry of Defense

542
00:22:31,850 --> 00:22:28,980
who was and visited America and it's

543
00:22:34,370 --> 00:22:31,860
sort of almost like second hand and I

544
00:22:36,830 --> 00:22:34,380
just think the key the key the key lines

545
00:22:38,810 --> 00:22:36,840
here is he says the British have a

546
00:22:41,570 --> 00:22:38,820
standing committee created about 16

547
00:22:43,730 --> 00:22:41,580
months ago on flying sources and

548
00:22:47,270 --> 00:22:43,740
presumably this is now under Dr Jones

549
00:22:49,370 --> 00:22:47,280
now Dr Jones is is the well-known

550
00:22:52,250 --> 00:22:49,380
what was known as one of Churchill's

551
00:22:54,230 --> 00:22:52,260
Wizards and Reginald Victors Jones who

552
00:22:56,690 --> 00:22:54,240
was the head of scientific intelligence

553
00:22:58,430 --> 00:22:56,700
during the second world war head of the

554
00:23:00,169 --> 00:22:58,440
air Ministry scientific intelligence and

555
00:23:02,990 --> 00:23:00,179
he was all through his life interested

556
00:23:06,409 --> 00:23:03,000
in UFOs and fine sources

557
00:23:08,510 --> 00:23:06,419
um and he he was he left the mod after

558
00:23:10,490 --> 00:23:08,520
the second world war but Churchill

559
00:23:13,130 --> 00:23:10,500
persuaded him to come back and he was in

560
00:23:16,210 --> 00:23:13,140
that role head of the DSi if you

561
00:23:18,830 --> 00:23:16,220
remember the signal we saw about

562
00:23:22,490 --> 00:23:18,840
DSi was with the body who investigated

563
00:23:23,930 --> 00:23:22,500
the top twist incident so RV Jones would

564
00:23:26,810 --> 00:23:23,940
have known about it he would have been

565
00:23:28,789 --> 00:23:26,820
in charge of that investigation and

566
00:23:30,830 --> 00:23:28,799
interestingly enough although we're told

567
00:23:33,350 --> 00:23:30,840
that after that um flying source of

568
00:23:34,909 --> 00:23:33,360
working party had concluded its certain

569
00:23:36,430 --> 00:23:34,919
work that that was the end of it they

570
00:23:39,110 --> 00:23:36,440
didn't there was no further interest

571
00:23:42,049 --> 00:23:39,120
this seems to suggest otherwise that

572
00:23:44,870 --> 00:23:42,059
they'd set up a standing committee in in

573
00:23:46,730 --> 00:23:44,880
the DSi straight away afterwards and

574
00:23:49,190 --> 00:23:46,740
that Harvey Jones was now head of that

575
00:23:50,930 --> 00:23:49,200
and it says the RAF are action people

576
00:23:53,570 --> 00:23:50,940
the group have concluded that the

577
00:23:55,909 --> 00:23:53,580
observations are not enemy aircraft and

578
00:23:57,950 --> 00:23:55,919
that non have been over

579
00:24:00,130 --> 00:23:57,960
fill in the blank okay I can only assume

580
00:24:02,510 --> 00:24:00,140
that Britain

581
00:24:04,970 --> 00:24:02,520
but then he says and this is the

582
00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:04,980
interesting bit which links to top cliff

583
00:24:10,130 --> 00:24:07,440
the activity has been quiet and normal

584
00:24:13,310 --> 00:24:10,140
up to about 10 to 12 days ago now I

585
00:24:15,830 --> 00:24:13,320
think that is just um an error I think

586
00:24:18,049 --> 00:24:15,840
she means two or three months ago at

587
00:24:20,990 --> 00:24:18,059
which time being the Yorkshire incident

588
00:24:22,850 --> 00:24:21,000
took place in some ref field there was

589
00:24:25,190 --> 00:24:22,860
some sort of demonstration to which high

590
00:24:27,950 --> 00:24:25,200
officials held the Raf in London have

591
00:24:29,810 --> 00:24:27,960
been invited during the show a perfect

592
00:24:32,570 --> 00:24:29,820
flying source of a scene by these

593
00:24:34,190 --> 00:24:32,580
officials as well as RAF Pilots so many

594
00:24:37,130 --> 00:24:34,200
people saw it that many articles

595
00:24:39,169 --> 00:24:37,140
appeared in the public press that is

596
00:24:40,789 --> 00:24:39,179
that to me is what proves it's got to be

597
00:24:42,350 --> 00:24:40,799
top Cliff because it was only the top

598
00:24:44,330 --> 00:24:42,360
Cliff incident that made all the news

599
00:24:45,770 --> 00:24:44,340
the headlines and we can show you some

600
00:24:48,350 --> 00:24:45,780
of those

601
00:24:50,210 --> 00:24:48,360
um and this is upset Jones because he

602
00:24:52,970 --> 00:24:50,220
realizes that the creation of the

603
00:24:55,669 --> 00:24:52,980
correction of public opinion is part of

604
00:24:57,890 --> 00:24:55,679
his responsibilities so here we get into

605
00:25:00,830 --> 00:24:57,900
the sort of the cia's psychological

606
00:25:04,190 --> 00:25:00,840
warfare interest they were upset that

607
00:25:06,110 --> 00:25:04,200
the people including RAF Pilots were

608
00:25:07,430 --> 00:25:06,120
talking about flying sources because it

609
00:25:10,789 --> 00:25:07,440
was something that didn't woman Zuck

610
00:25:13,850 --> 00:25:10,799
about yeah so we've got to get bumps as

611
00:25:17,029 --> 00:25:15,590
so yeah I mean that was amazing when you

612
00:25:19,070 --> 00:25:17,039
sent me that document I was just like

613
00:25:21,649 --> 00:25:19,080
and I had a few people comment and go

614
00:25:23,990 --> 00:25:21,659
where's that from like Sean Rash uh who

615
00:25:25,970 --> 00:25:24,000
you know he missed the documents himself

616
00:25:28,130 --> 00:25:25,980
uh

617
00:25:30,769 --> 00:25:28,140
didn't didn't recognize it and so yeah

618
00:25:33,230 --> 00:25:30,779
impressive there's a whole bunch of CIA

619
00:25:34,610 --> 00:25:33,240
documents that they're holding back I

620
00:25:36,710 --> 00:25:34,620
know they've released lots and you can

621
00:25:38,090 --> 00:25:36,720
get them all on a CD-ROM but there's

622
00:25:40,490 --> 00:25:38,100
several hundred that are still

623
00:25:41,510 --> 00:25:40,500
classified and I think this is one of

624
00:25:43,190 --> 00:25:41,520
them

625
00:25:44,810 --> 00:25:43,200
well I managed to

626
00:25:47,029 --> 00:25:44,820
maybe because of my connection with

627
00:25:49,430 --> 00:25:47,039
General Haynes he persuaded his

628
00:25:50,990 --> 00:25:49,440
superiors to let me have this one

629
00:25:53,930 --> 00:25:51,000
and when did you get this sorry what

630
00:25:56,810 --> 00:25:53,940
year I think it's on the um oh yeah

631
00:26:00,169 --> 00:25:56,820
approved for release yeah

632
00:26:02,810 --> 00:26:00,179
that's yeah that's pretty incredible

633
00:26:07,430 --> 00:26:02,820
so one thing you did just mention was

634
00:26:09,890 --> 00:26:07,440
the the newspaper yeah so just I mean

635
00:26:12,049 --> 00:26:09,900
just just to mention that the reason I

636
00:26:13,789 --> 00:26:12,059
think that is definitely a reference to

637
00:26:16,490 --> 00:26:13,799
top Cliff even though he refers to it as

638
00:26:19,250 --> 00:26:16,500
being two or three days ago it can't be

639
00:26:21,590 --> 00:26:19,260
because the only the only big story that

640
00:26:23,510 --> 00:26:21,600
got massive coverage is the top top

641
00:26:24,890 --> 00:26:23,520
Cliff case

642
00:26:26,750 --> 00:26:24,900
um you can have a look at some of the

643
00:26:29,570 --> 00:26:26,760
headlines now but it was it was it was

644
00:26:31,310 --> 00:26:29,580
it got massive coverage uh could it be

645
00:26:34,190 --> 00:26:31,320
that he wrote could it be that he wrote

646
00:26:36,049 --> 00:26:34,200
that memo or and it just didn't get put

647
00:26:37,490 --> 00:26:36,059
out until December and it just sat on my

648
00:26:39,470 --> 00:26:37,500
desk for a couple of months yeah exactly

649
00:26:42,470 --> 00:26:39,480
it could be something as simple as that

650
00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:42,480
but you don't forget this is 1952 I mean

651
00:26:46,490 --> 00:26:44,640
because we live in the age where you

652
00:26:48,529 --> 00:26:46,500
know social media people are reading the

653
00:26:52,070 --> 00:26:48,539
same message instantaneously across the

654
00:26:53,990 --> 00:26:52,080
world things took a long time news took

655
00:26:55,850 --> 00:26:54,000
a long time to reach

656
00:26:59,269 --> 00:26:55,860
um far-form destinations even between

657
00:27:01,549 --> 00:26:59,279
the UK and the USA I mean this is a

658
00:27:03,409 --> 00:27:01,559
this is the sort of coverage this

659
00:27:04,850 --> 00:27:03,419
sighting got at the time as you can see

660
00:27:07,310 --> 00:27:04,860
this is the Yorkshire evening press

661
00:27:09,890 --> 00:27:07,320
which I think is the York newspaper

662
00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:09,900
evening newspaper can you can you

663
00:27:14,690 --> 00:27:12,000
imagine a UFO story making the front

664
00:27:16,630 --> 00:27:14,700
page of a newspaper like that today this

665
00:27:19,430 --> 00:27:16,640
is the difference from 17 years ago

666
00:27:21,710 --> 00:27:19,440
treated in a serious way as well not as

667
00:27:23,570 --> 00:27:21,720
entertainment but as a serious sort of

668
00:27:26,710 --> 00:27:23,580
thing that people should pay attention

669
00:27:30,289 --> 00:27:26,720
to antique seriously

670
00:27:32,870 --> 00:27:30,299
yeah and the good thing is here is

671
00:27:35,450 --> 00:27:32,880
um this is before they started saying

672
00:27:37,789 --> 00:27:35,460
they put out all the sort of things to

673
00:27:39,230 --> 00:27:37,799
um military personnel saying if you see

674
00:27:41,570 --> 00:27:39,240
something in the sky that you can't

675
00:27:44,390 --> 00:27:41,580
identify do not under any circumstances

676
00:27:47,630 --> 00:27:44,400
talk to the Press that's something that

677
00:27:49,490 --> 00:27:47,640
was imposed um by DDI Security in I

678
00:27:52,610 --> 00:27:49,500
think the end of 1953

679
00:27:55,610 --> 00:27:52,620
right well you see in 1952 there was no

680
00:27:58,669 --> 00:27:55,620
security black and blackout of society

681
00:28:00,529 --> 00:27:58,679
if if for example you were our RAF or

682
00:28:02,570 --> 00:28:00,539
Royal Navy and you saw something in in

683
00:28:05,450 --> 00:28:02,580
your Apple to speak to someone from the

684
00:28:07,970 --> 00:28:05,460
media it got into the papers

685
00:28:10,310 --> 00:28:07,980
as this one did and this is what and

686
00:28:13,970 --> 00:28:10,320
that CIA memo is referring to in terms

687
00:28:17,090 --> 00:28:13,980
of like Dr Jones being upset yeah but it

688
00:28:20,149 --> 00:28:17,100
makes sense yeah they didn't want didn't

689
00:28:23,210 --> 00:28:20,159
want people to think our own and

690
00:28:24,769 --> 00:28:23,220
Personnel our test pilots our Naval

691
00:28:26,690 --> 00:28:24,779
Personnel are seeing these things

692
00:28:28,029 --> 00:28:26,700
because they were trying to sort of make

693
00:28:30,710 --> 00:28:28,039
it out that they were all sort of

694
00:28:33,710 --> 00:28:30,720
optical illusions and misidentifications

695
00:28:34,549 --> 00:28:33,720
an awful lot of them were

696
00:28:37,250 --> 00:28:34,559
um but

697
00:28:38,149 --> 00:28:37,260
like today they were very very sensitive

698
00:28:39,769 --> 00:28:38,159
about

699
00:28:41,330 --> 00:28:39,779
um military personnel talking to the

700
00:28:43,450 --> 00:28:41,340
media about things that seemed that

701
00:28:46,250 --> 00:28:43,460
couldn't be identified

702
00:28:48,289 --> 00:28:46,260
absolutely I mean this has got they've

703
00:28:51,409 --> 00:28:48,299
obviously interviewed flightless flight

704
00:28:53,210 --> 00:28:51,419
lieutenant John Kilburn as well yeah

705
00:28:54,789 --> 00:28:53,220
happily given statements to them so

706
00:28:57,230 --> 00:28:54,799
that's yeah

707
00:28:59,510 --> 00:28:57,240
because there's a picture of all the the

708
00:29:02,049 --> 00:28:59,520
group all all sort of sat around here we

709
00:29:04,789 --> 00:29:02,059
go I don't really can see that

710
00:29:06,950 --> 00:29:04,799
yeah you can see the whole bunch of them

711
00:29:09,409 --> 00:29:06,960
all sat around and you can see them

712
00:29:11,330 --> 00:29:09,419
talking to a journalist can you imagine

713
00:29:15,370 --> 00:29:11,340
that happening today immediately after

714
00:29:21,289 --> 00:29:18,710
front page story in the Sunday dispatch

715
00:29:23,389 --> 00:29:21,299
which was like the equivalent of um you

716
00:29:25,789 --> 00:29:23,399
know like the Sunday Mirror or the

717
00:29:28,370 --> 00:29:25,799
Sunday Times today and the Sunday

718
00:29:29,690 --> 00:29:28,380
dispatch if you look at the back copies

719
00:29:31,669 --> 00:29:29,700
of it

720
00:29:33,470 --> 00:29:31,679
um as I've done in the newspaper Library

721
00:29:35,510 --> 00:29:33,480
virtually every other week they had a

722
00:29:38,810 --> 00:29:35,520
front page story on the latest you ever

723
00:29:42,830 --> 00:29:38,820
sightings wow all throughout the 1950s

724
00:29:45,590 --> 00:29:42,840
really that that frequent yeah very

725
00:29:47,090 --> 00:29:45,600
frequently yeah and it was it was the

726
00:29:50,510 --> 00:29:47,100
people were talking about him don't

727
00:29:52,850 --> 00:29:50,520
forget in pop culture as well yeah they

728
00:29:54,830 --> 00:29:52,860
were the American films about flying

729
00:29:59,210 --> 00:29:54,840
sources that were really popular the

730
00:30:01,310 --> 00:29:59,220
year before all this kicked off 1951 was

731
00:30:03,889 --> 00:30:01,320
that saw the release of The Day the

732
00:30:06,529 --> 00:30:03,899
Earth Stood Still you know classic yeah

733
00:30:08,870 --> 00:30:06,539
science fiction depicting you know it

734
00:30:12,169 --> 00:30:08,880
was and that film was all about you know

735
00:30:14,330 --> 00:30:12,179
the Cold War the nuclear tensions and

736
00:30:16,669 --> 00:30:14,340
and it was like you know here's a the

737
00:30:19,130 --> 00:30:16,679
the fact that we're about to destroy the

738
00:30:21,590 --> 00:30:19,140
planet and come to the attention of this

739
00:30:24,230 --> 00:30:21,600
ET civilization who'd send this a

740
00:30:25,549 --> 00:30:24,240
mystery huge robot and an alien in a

741
00:30:28,450 --> 00:30:25,559
flying saucer and basically they

742
00:30:32,090 --> 00:30:28,460
paralyzed the entire world yeah

743
00:30:34,250 --> 00:30:32,100
Washington DC comes to a grinding hole

744
00:30:36,409 --> 00:30:34,260
now although that was fiction as we all

745
00:30:37,850 --> 00:30:36,419
know fiction imitates art art imitates

746
00:30:39,769 --> 00:30:37,860
fiction and I think

747
00:30:41,630 --> 00:30:39,779
people watched it and they thought could

748
00:30:43,850 --> 00:30:41,640
this possibly be true and then when you

749
00:30:46,250 --> 00:30:43,860
get Pilots seeing these things it's like

750
00:30:48,529 --> 00:30:46,260
well maybe maybe what was depicted in

751
00:30:50,990 --> 00:30:48,539
that film is true and you know maybe

752
00:30:53,389 --> 00:30:51,000
they are trying to sort of persuade

753
00:30:55,370 --> 00:30:53,399
using films that have you know that

754
00:30:57,529 --> 00:30:55,380
these things are real

755
00:30:59,269 --> 00:30:57,539
yeah just as a little side question what

756
00:31:02,149 --> 00:30:59,279
was the the kind of public reporting

757
00:31:03,889 --> 00:31:02,159
like in the 50s uh in the UK for for

758
00:31:06,230 --> 00:31:03,899
UFOs was there anything did you ever

759
00:31:08,750 --> 00:31:06,240
find anything in the UFO archives yeah

760
00:31:10,430 --> 00:31:08,760
well Lots because there is a there is a

761
00:31:13,549 --> 00:31:10,440
surviving file of the National Archives

762
00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:13,559
on top Cliff unfortunately it's not the

763
00:31:18,169 --> 00:31:16,080
um the scientific intelligence

764
00:31:20,510 --> 00:31:18,179
file because they obviously did a really

765
00:31:23,510 --> 00:31:20,520
thorough investigation of it the only

766
00:31:26,630 --> 00:31:23,520
full file that survived is a file

767
00:31:28,430 --> 00:31:26,640
created by RAF top Cliff itself which

768
00:31:30,110 --> 00:31:28,440
has got Kilburn's report which you've

769
00:31:32,990 --> 00:31:30,120
just seen and there's a covering letter

770
00:31:34,789 --> 00:31:33,000
from the um commanding officer and what

771
00:31:35,690 --> 00:31:34,799
he's doing is saying we've already sent

772
00:31:38,389 --> 00:31:35,700
you

773
00:31:40,269 --> 00:31:38,399
our file on the military site in which

774
00:31:42,529 --> 00:31:40,279
hasn't survived

775
00:31:44,389 --> 00:31:42,539
the only thing that survived is this

776
00:31:46,610 --> 00:31:44,399
file that's got like a load of letters

777
00:31:49,070 --> 00:31:46,620
from members of the public who'd seen

778
00:31:51,769 --> 00:31:49,080
those stories in the newspapers and

779
00:31:53,690 --> 00:31:51,779
wanted to tell the air Ministry and the

780
00:31:55,850 --> 00:31:53,700
base that they'd seen things in the sky

781
00:31:57,649 --> 00:31:55,860
as well so there's like a whole bunch of

782
00:31:59,810 --> 00:31:57,659
letters from people in the Yorkshire

783
00:32:01,669 --> 00:31:59,820
area some from Wales talking about

784
00:32:04,850 --> 00:32:01,679
things they'd seen two or three years

785
00:32:06,529 --> 00:32:04,860
before who'd written in and the the base

786
00:32:08,029 --> 00:32:06,539
commander had basically gathered all

787
00:32:10,090 --> 00:32:08,039
these letters up and sent them to the

788
00:32:13,549 --> 00:32:10,100
air Ministry in London now that file

789
00:32:15,110 --> 00:32:13,559
inexplicably has survived whereas the

790
00:32:17,149 --> 00:32:15,120
the previous

791
00:32:18,830 --> 00:32:17,159
um report he'd sent to anime history

792
00:32:22,310 --> 00:32:18,840
which had got all the statements from

793
00:32:26,269 --> 00:32:22,320
all ten of the witnesses hasn't survived

794
00:32:28,310 --> 00:32:26,279
neither has the DSi study that was that

795
00:32:30,350 --> 00:32:28,320
was obviously carried out

796
00:32:32,330 --> 00:32:30,360
um because there's a there's a I've got

797
00:32:34,130 --> 00:32:32,340
a cutting here from the um Yorkshire

798
00:32:36,830 --> 00:32:34,140
Evening Post you might be able to see

799
00:32:38,630 --> 00:32:36,840
that yeah that's in November or December

800
00:32:40,190 --> 00:32:38,640
and the Yorkshire Evening Post had gone

801
00:32:41,990 --> 00:32:40,200
back to the air Ministry and said you

802
00:32:44,029 --> 00:32:42,000
know we know you're doing an

803
00:32:46,310 --> 00:32:44,039
investigation what's the result and

804
00:32:48,649 --> 00:32:46,320
three months later they said we can't

805
00:32:50,750 --> 00:32:48,659
explain it we've interviewed all the

806
00:32:52,730 --> 00:32:50,760
witnesses and intriguing me enough in

807
00:32:54,889 --> 00:32:52,740
here it actually mentions that as well

808
00:32:57,649 --> 00:32:54,899
as being seen from the ground it was

809
00:32:59,870 --> 00:32:57,659
seen by pilots of two aircraft in the

810
00:33:01,370 --> 00:32:59,880
air which isn't as far as I'm aware has

811
00:33:04,669 --> 00:33:01,380
never been part

812
00:33:07,909 --> 00:33:04,679
of um this this case in ufology because

813
00:33:09,710 --> 00:33:07,919
it clearly was also seen from the air as

814
00:33:11,810 --> 00:33:09,720
well and if you think about it the what

815
00:33:13,370 --> 00:33:11,820
they actually saw from the ground was an

816
00:33:15,470 --> 00:33:13,380
object that seemed to be following a

817
00:33:17,269 --> 00:33:15,480
meteor jet coming in to land at dishwas

818
00:33:19,190 --> 00:33:17,279
so my question is

819
00:33:22,730 --> 00:33:19,200
did the pilot of the meteor see anything

820
00:33:25,250 --> 00:33:22,740
and it seems that he did or she did

821
00:33:26,870 --> 00:33:25,260
whoever was flying the aircraft and

822
00:33:28,610 --> 00:33:26,880
possibly um the pilot of another

823
00:33:31,250 --> 00:33:28,620
aircraft as well may have seen something

824
00:33:32,630 --> 00:33:31,260
that and and also was it seen on radar

825
00:33:34,490 --> 00:33:32,640
was it seen on there would have been

826
00:33:37,850 --> 00:33:34,500
some kind of ground control

827
00:33:40,310 --> 00:33:37,860
um radar covering that area and if this

828
00:33:41,690 --> 00:33:40,320
might be the time to introduce the di55

829
00:33:45,889 --> 00:33:41,700
document

830
00:33:45,899 --> 00:33:48,590
yeah

831
00:33:52,970 --> 00:33:51,590
got it here we go so we've said that a

832
00:33:55,310 --> 00:33:52,980
lot of these early

833
00:33:57,049 --> 00:33:55,320
um files have been destroyed

834
00:33:57,710 --> 00:33:57,059
now this

835
00:34:04,789 --> 00:33:57,720
um

836
00:34:07,789 --> 00:34:04,799
2000 2001 this is from a file from 1967.

837
00:34:09,649 --> 00:34:07,799
and by 1967 the air Ministry no longer

838
00:34:13,250 --> 00:34:09,659
existed because they got rid of the air

839
00:34:15,230 --> 00:34:13,260
Ministry the um admiralty and the

840
00:34:17,450 --> 00:34:15,240
military intelligence and they all

841
00:34:21,109 --> 00:34:17,460
merged into the mod

842
00:34:24,530 --> 00:34:21,119
in the 1960s and that's where di55 then

843
00:34:26,750 --> 00:34:24,540
became responsible for UFOs so they took

844
00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:26,760
over from the air Ministry intelligence

845
00:34:31,490 --> 00:34:29,520
section that used to back in the 1950s

846
00:34:32,810 --> 00:34:31,500
keep times on these things so it's

847
00:34:35,149 --> 00:34:32,820
interesting there was a big flap of

848
00:34:38,810 --> 00:34:35,159
sightings in 1967 and this chap John

849
00:34:42,050 --> 00:34:38,820
Dickinson Who was the di55c

850
00:34:44,270 --> 00:34:42,060
was his designation so he was the di55

851
00:34:47,750 --> 00:34:44,280
defense intelligence scientist he was

852
00:34:49,909 --> 00:34:47,760
based at farnborough interestingly

853
00:34:52,250 --> 00:34:49,919
um who was responsible for UFOs and he

854
00:34:54,109 --> 00:34:52,260
went out during 1967 and did field

855
00:34:55,849 --> 00:34:54,119
investigations

856
00:34:58,609 --> 00:34:55,859
um of about at least half a dozen

857
00:35:00,950 --> 00:34:58,619
sightings he actually had a car and

858
00:35:03,410 --> 00:35:00,960
spent a lot of his time and working on

859
00:35:05,390 --> 00:35:03,420
this subject and all these people all

860
00:35:07,730 --> 00:35:05,400
these papers have survived or quite a

861
00:35:09,650 --> 00:35:07,740
few of them anyway including this one so

862
00:35:11,510 --> 00:35:09,660
as you can see despite the fact that

863
00:35:13,670 --> 00:35:11,520
they were telling people that the files

864
00:35:16,849 --> 00:35:13,680
from the 1950s had been destroyed he

865
00:35:18,950 --> 00:35:16,859
obviously had access to them in 1967 you

866
00:35:22,190 --> 00:35:18,960
can see the date on the 13th of December

867
00:35:25,010 --> 00:35:22,200
1967 someone had obviously asked him to

868
00:35:28,069 --> 00:35:25,020
go and dig out some of these old files

869
00:35:30,950 --> 00:35:28,079
and he said he says there that he'd

870
00:35:33,410 --> 00:35:30,960
managed to find all but two of the

871
00:35:36,589 --> 00:35:33,420
intelligence files on you first for the

872
00:35:37,970 --> 00:35:36,599
for that period 1951-52 which at that

873
00:35:40,730 --> 00:35:37,980
time they were telling members of the

874
00:35:43,069 --> 00:35:40,740
public had been destroyed so I think

875
00:35:44,930 --> 00:35:43,079
this is a good reason to doubt

876
00:35:46,370 --> 00:35:44,940
what we're sometimes told that these

877
00:35:48,890 --> 00:35:46,380
files no longer exist because they

878
00:35:51,589 --> 00:35:48,900
certainly existed in 1967 and he'd seen

879
00:35:53,690 --> 00:35:51,599
them so as you can see he says the files

880
00:35:55,609 --> 00:35:53,700
examined indicate that the top Cliff

881
00:35:58,730 --> 00:35:55,619
meteor incident which occurred during

882
00:36:01,730 --> 00:35:58,740
the NATO exercise Moon brace was typical

883
00:36:02,510 --> 00:36:01,740
of reports about such aircraft at the

884
00:36:04,010 --> 00:36:02,520
time

885
00:36:06,470 --> 00:36:04,020
now I've never been able to work out

886
00:36:09,530 --> 00:36:06,480
what he meant by that does he mean to do

887
00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:09,540
with meteor aircraft or to do with the

888
00:36:15,230 --> 00:36:13,200
UFO hasn't it I'd say the the UFOs or

889
00:36:17,750 --> 00:36:15,240
the objects but but it's a very

890
00:36:19,490 --> 00:36:17,760
strangely worded isn't it it is it isn't

891
00:36:22,010 --> 00:36:19,500
it yeah so that because he then talks

892
00:36:23,990 --> 00:36:22,020
about the meteor being extensively

893
00:36:26,690 --> 00:36:24,000
operated in a variety of roles so he's

894
00:36:28,550 --> 00:36:26,700
obviously talking about a meteor jet but

895
00:36:30,470 --> 00:36:28,560
then he I think the next paragraph is

896
00:36:32,810 --> 00:36:30,480
the key once he says as regards the

897
00:36:35,870 --> 00:36:32,820
particular incident the object in

898
00:36:37,550 --> 00:36:35,880
inverted commas only appeared to come

899
00:36:39,829 --> 00:36:37,560
from the aircraft

900
00:36:41,870 --> 00:36:39,839
there is no specific evidence in the

901
00:36:44,510 --> 00:36:41,880
files examined so far that the object

902
00:36:46,310 --> 00:36:44,520
tracked or came from the aircraft in

903
00:36:49,069 --> 00:36:46,320
fact the trajectory of the apparent

904
00:36:51,230 --> 00:36:49,079
object was not established in absolute

905
00:36:54,050 --> 00:36:51,240
terms and thus typical questions such as

906
00:36:56,089 --> 00:36:54,060
true range have not been answered now

907
00:36:58,130 --> 00:36:56,099
that suggests to me they've done a

908
00:37:01,609 --> 00:36:58,140
pretty thorough investigation possibly

909
00:37:04,130 --> 00:37:01,619
involving radar tracing of the object

910
00:37:05,690 --> 00:37:04,140
um where are those files that he's

911
00:37:08,450 --> 00:37:05,700
referring to because they clearly

912
00:37:10,310 --> 00:37:08,460
existed in 1967 and it's clear that they

913
00:37:12,950 --> 00:37:10,320
weren't able to identify

914
00:37:16,010 --> 00:37:12,960
whatever it was that intruded on this

915
00:37:18,589 --> 00:37:16,020
massive need to exercise

916
00:37:20,210 --> 00:37:18,599
he says that he says the the objects

917
00:37:21,950 --> 00:37:20,220
only appeared to come from the aircraft

918
00:37:24,530 --> 00:37:21,960
and we've heard the witnesses saying

919
00:37:27,950 --> 00:37:24,540
that the they first noticed the objects

920
00:37:30,770 --> 00:37:27,960
at a lot higher altitude than the meteor

921
00:37:33,230 --> 00:37:30,780
yeah do it and performing in ways that

922
00:37:35,150 --> 00:37:33,240
would not be just be a piece of fuselage

923
00:37:37,250 --> 00:37:35,160
or something falling out of the sky if

924
00:37:40,310 --> 00:37:37,260
it shot off so

925
00:37:42,349 --> 00:37:40,320
yeah how much of that is based on

926
00:37:44,390 --> 00:37:42,359
well he's missing out points basically

927
00:37:46,849 --> 00:37:44,400
from my gun I just wish you could see

928
00:37:48,410 --> 00:37:46,859
why the documents that he is beating

929
00:37:50,750 --> 00:37:48,420
that on because he you know there's

930
00:37:52,910 --> 00:37:50,760
obviously such a a lot of stuff that's

931
00:37:55,430 --> 00:37:52,920
did once exist

932
00:37:58,089 --> 00:37:55,440
which has either been lost or has been

933
00:38:00,410 --> 00:37:58,099
put somewhere away he can never be found

934
00:38:01,550 --> 00:38:00,420
I mean one of the things is a lot of

935
00:38:03,770 --> 00:38:01,560
these files if they've not been

936
00:38:05,810 --> 00:38:03,780
destroyed have quite possibly been given

937
00:38:08,810 --> 00:38:05,820
to or safe keeping to some kind of

938
00:38:10,550 --> 00:38:08,820
private contractor outside Freedom of

939
00:38:12,290 --> 00:38:10,560
Information so that they can just bypass

940
00:38:14,390 --> 00:38:12,300
Freedom of Information requests so

941
00:38:15,770 --> 00:38:14,400
you're never going to get to see it

942
00:38:18,230 --> 00:38:15,780
and the thing is the amount of times

943
00:38:20,329 --> 00:38:18,240
that we've come across that if they all

944
00:38:23,329 --> 00:38:20,339
do exist there is a treasure Trove

945
00:38:25,490 --> 00:38:23,339
somewhere yeah covering decades decades

946
00:38:28,130 --> 00:38:25,500
and decades

947
00:38:30,650 --> 00:38:28,140
how do you think of that well that's the

948
00:38:33,310 --> 00:38:30,660
thing we just need a a nice source to

949
00:38:36,710 --> 00:38:33,320
step forward anybody watching

950
00:38:38,270 --> 00:38:36,720
you never know yeah all right so this is

951
00:38:39,829 --> 00:38:38,280
this is all adding up to why I think

952
00:38:42,410 --> 00:38:39,839
this um

953
00:38:43,910 --> 00:38:42,420
not this site in the top cliff thing in

954
00:38:45,530 --> 00:38:43,920
itself is really interesting but there

955
00:38:47,690 --> 00:38:45,540
was a whole bunch of other sightings

956
00:38:49,910 --> 00:38:47,700
around the same time you know when you

957
00:38:51,770 --> 00:38:49,920
want to introduce the the the one at

958
00:38:54,710 --> 00:38:51,780
little rissington which happened in

959
00:38:57,650 --> 00:38:54,720
October 1952 a month later

960
00:39:00,230 --> 00:38:57,660
absolutely the the Swinney Crofts case

961
00:39:03,650 --> 00:39:00,240
yeah Michael Sweeney and David Cross

962
00:39:06,050 --> 00:39:03,660
absolutely yeah sorry go on did you want

963
00:39:08,329 --> 00:39:06,060
to play the audio this is an interview I

964
00:39:10,730 --> 00:39:08,339
did with Michael Swinney um back in

965
00:39:13,609 --> 00:39:10,740
2001.

966
00:39:16,190 --> 00:39:13,619
um he was um a meteor he trained

967
00:39:18,710 --> 00:39:16,200
students on flying meteors and they were

968
00:39:22,010 --> 00:39:18,720
they were in this particular case

969
00:39:24,109 --> 00:39:22,020
um October 1952 he got a student with

970
00:39:27,770 --> 00:39:24,119
him who was a royal Navy Lieutenant who

971
00:39:30,170 --> 00:39:27,780
again I I interviewed uh it was um

972
00:39:32,510 --> 00:39:30,180
told cry an incredible story so he was

973
00:39:34,430 --> 00:39:32,520
sat behind mix when he in the cockpit of

974
00:39:35,990 --> 00:39:34,440
the meteor they'd lifted off from this

975
00:39:37,069 --> 00:39:36,000
training Air Base called little

976
00:39:39,109 --> 00:39:37,079
missington

977
00:39:42,349 --> 00:39:39,119
you can gloucestershire and I think they

978
00:39:44,390 --> 00:39:42,359
got to about 5 000 feet they just burst

979
00:39:46,270 --> 00:39:44,400
through this sort of cloud cover and

980
00:39:48,530 --> 00:39:46,280
looked up and

981
00:39:51,589 --> 00:39:48,540
I'm gonna use a prop now I've been

982
00:39:53,329 --> 00:39:51,599
drinking from this last of wide and the

983
00:39:55,310 --> 00:39:53,339
way you described it to me he looked up

984
00:39:58,010 --> 00:39:55,320
and he could see you can imagine the

985
00:39:59,990 --> 00:39:58,020
bottom of the base of this glass of wine

986
00:40:02,150 --> 00:40:00,000
that sort of shape

987
00:40:03,609 --> 00:40:02,160
I think you can see that moving in the

988
00:40:06,349 --> 00:40:03,619
wrong direction

989
00:40:07,849 --> 00:40:06,359
that's how he described it looked and he

990
00:40:09,890 --> 00:40:07,859
could see

991
00:40:12,589 --> 00:40:09,900
and he said it was like shining and

992
00:40:14,750 --> 00:40:12,599
iridescent like the bottom of a

993
00:40:17,089 --> 00:40:14,760
of the wine glass and there was three of

994
00:40:18,349 --> 00:40:17,099
them in in a sort of an Echelon sort of

995
00:40:21,589 --> 00:40:18,359
formation

996
00:40:24,589 --> 00:40:21,599
above him as he as he broke through the

997
00:40:25,670 --> 00:40:24,599
clouds and he turned around and said to

998
00:40:30,230 --> 00:40:25,680
David Cross

999
00:40:33,710 --> 00:40:32,270
have you forgot to turn the oxygen on

1000
00:40:35,210 --> 00:40:33,720
because he thought he was hallucinating

1001
00:40:36,650 --> 00:40:35,220
when he saw these things and he said

1002
00:40:38,270 --> 00:40:36,660
yeah well we tested it before we sell

1003
00:40:39,770 --> 00:40:38,280
off David yeah he's fine and said well

1004
00:40:42,230 --> 00:40:39,780
can you see those things in front of you

1005
00:40:43,670 --> 00:40:42,240
that I can see and of course David's

1006
00:40:46,490 --> 00:40:43,680
crossed behind him said yeah I can see

1007
00:40:47,810 --> 00:40:46,500
him too and it was like the radioed down

1008
00:40:50,030 --> 00:40:47,820
to um

1009
00:40:52,910 --> 00:40:50,040
ground control to say we've got three

1010
00:40:57,710 --> 00:40:52,920
objects above us what should we do

1011
00:41:00,170 --> 00:40:57,720
basically and um they were just

1012
00:41:03,050 --> 00:41:00,180
absolutely stunned and according to the

1013
00:41:05,569 --> 00:41:03,060
story these the the contact and fighter

1014
00:41:07,130 --> 00:41:05,579
command this scrambled

1015
00:41:08,990 --> 00:41:07,140
um it's fighters from I think from

1016
00:41:10,609 --> 00:41:09,000
tagmire in Sussex so I think you can

1017
00:41:12,530 --> 00:41:10,619
imagine there's these Fighters hurtling

1018
00:41:15,230 --> 00:41:12,540
towards gloucestershire to intercept

1019
00:41:17,210 --> 00:41:15,240
these objects and they also picked them

1020
00:41:19,250 --> 00:41:17,220
up on radar at Gloucester Air Traffic

1021
00:41:21,290 --> 00:41:19,260
Control Gloucester as well so an amazing

1022
00:41:23,630 --> 00:41:21,300
incident yeah and it was only by

1023
00:41:25,970 --> 00:41:23,640
accident that um I got to speak to both

1024
00:41:28,370 --> 00:41:25,980
Michael Sweeney and David Cross when

1025
00:41:29,870 --> 00:41:28,380
they were still winners both and

1026
00:41:31,190 --> 00:41:29,880
certainly in Michael Sweeney's no longer

1027
00:41:33,730 --> 00:41:31,200
with us

1028
00:41:36,410 --> 00:41:33,740
um and he told the story and just

1029
00:41:39,650 --> 00:41:36,420
incredibly well so if you want to play

1030
00:41:41,630 --> 00:41:39,660
your little audio section yeah I will

1031
00:41:44,510 --> 00:41:41,640
just caveat that you did actually send

1032
00:41:46,670 --> 00:41:44,520
me two files of interviews which were

1033
00:41:48,710 --> 00:41:46,680
quite lengthy so I've just pulled five

1034
00:41:51,650 --> 00:41:48,720
minutes out to play now but if anybody

1035
00:41:53,030 --> 00:41:51,660
is interested in listening to the whole

1036
00:41:55,069 --> 00:41:53,040
things if you go into the the

1037
00:41:56,329 --> 00:41:55,079
description of the video there's a link

1038
00:41:58,609 --> 00:41:56,339
to a Google Drive where you can just

1039
00:42:01,490 --> 00:41:58,619
download the full things but let's bring

1040
00:42:02,990 --> 00:42:01,500
this five minutes up and I think I

1041
00:42:05,750 --> 00:42:03,000
captured the best

1042
00:42:07,370 --> 00:42:05,760
five minutes so that image I just put on

1043
00:42:09,770 --> 00:42:07,380
so we didn't have a blank screen so

1044
00:42:12,829 --> 00:42:09,780
ignore that um let me know in the chat

1045
00:42:38,329 --> 00:42:12,839
if you can hear this as well because

1046
00:42:38,339 --> 00:43:02,890
I can't hear anything Vinnie

1047
00:43:10,670 --> 00:43:06,710
well um directly we broke through some

1048
00:43:12,290 --> 00:43:10,680
Cloud at about 14 000 feet and um

1049
00:43:19,550 --> 00:43:12,300
in front

1050
00:43:22,670 --> 00:43:19,560
appeared to be what I took to be perhaps

1051
00:43:24,589 --> 00:43:22,680
three people coming down in Parachute

1052
00:43:27,609 --> 00:43:24,599
so I grabbed

1053
00:43:30,609 --> 00:43:27,619
control of the aircraft from the student

1054
00:43:32,690 --> 00:43:30,619
instructor behind me

1055
00:43:34,370 --> 00:43:32,700
to make sure that if they wear

1056
00:43:36,190 --> 00:43:34,380
parachutes we didn't go through the

1057
00:43:38,510 --> 00:43:36,200
middle of them

1058
00:43:41,329 --> 00:43:38,520
whereabouts were they on the windscreen

1059
00:43:43,190 --> 00:43:41,339
they were directly in front of of the

1060
00:43:45,530 --> 00:43:43,200
windscreen

1061
00:43:48,170 --> 00:43:45,540
um and that is why I'm

1062
00:43:50,089 --> 00:43:48,180
took the aircraft to one side to make

1063
00:43:52,370 --> 00:43:50,099
sure that I didn't go up through them if

1064
00:43:55,250 --> 00:43:52,380
they had been parachute but it was soon

1065
00:43:57,950 --> 00:43:55,260
quite apparent that um that they weren't

1066
00:44:02,690 --> 00:43:57,960
but there were three

1067
00:44:05,510 --> 00:44:02,700
um circular uh white or off-white discs

1068
00:44:10,010 --> 00:44:05,520
straight in front of me

1069
00:44:10,990 --> 00:44:10,020
um two on a level heel and one that is

1070
00:44:13,609 --> 00:44:11,000
slightly

1071
00:44:15,829 --> 00:44:13,619
candid to one side I can't remember

1072
00:44:18,589 --> 00:44:15,839
which side that was

1073
00:44:21,530 --> 00:44:18,599
you know how far away they were from you

1074
00:44:22,970 --> 00:44:21,540
no I have no idea how far away they were

1075
00:44:24,950 --> 00:44:22,980
because

1076
00:44:27,109 --> 00:44:24,960
um I I didn't know what size they might

1077
00:44:28,870 --> 00:44:27,119
have been but I know that they were

1078
00:44:32,329 --> 00:44:28,880
above us

1079
00:44:37,390 --> 00:44:32,339
and we continued climbing until

1080
00:44:40,430 --> 00:44:37,400
such time as they lost their disc

1081
00:44:41,270 --> 00:44:40,440
appearance and took on a sort of flat

1082
00:44:44,150 --> 00:44:41,280
plate

1083
00:44:46,490 --> 00:44:44,160
how long did you have them envision

1084
00:44:47,990 --> 00:44:46,500
very difficult to say and it's 50 years

1085
00:44:48,589 --> 00:44:48,000
ago

1086
00:44:51,050 --> 00:44:48,599
um

1087
00:44:53,270 --> 00:44:51,060
I don't honestly remember but it was

1088
00:44:54,950 --> 00:44:53,280
quite a long time it was minutes rather

1089
00:44:57,650 --> 00:44:54,960
than seconds

1090
00:44:57,660 --> 00:45:01,370
who what there was someone in the plane

1091
00:45:05,809 --> 00:45:04,010
the plane looking out was there was any

1092
00:45:06,950 --> 00:45:05,819
did the other person in the plane see

1093
00:45:09,650 --> 00:45:06,960
them

1094
00:45:12,589 --> 00:45:09,660
uh yeah she certainly did because

1095
00:45:17,030 --> 00:45:12,599
um I managed to put my

1096
00:45:20,750 --> 00:45:17,040
head to one side and he was able to look

1097
00:45:23,329 --> 00:45:20,760
past my the open shoulder as it were and

1098
00:45:24,770 --> 00:45:23,339
he could quite clearly see what I could

1099
00:45:28,309 --> 00:45:24,780
see

1100
00:45:29,750 --> 00:45:28,319
what did he what did you say to him

1101
00:45:32,030 --> 00:45:29,760
uh

1102
00:45:34,609 --> 00:45:32,040
I think I've

1103
00:45:37,309 --> 00:45:34,619
said something like um

1104
00:45:41,329 --> 00:45:37,319
have a look at this so well

1105
00:45:44,569 --> 00:45:41,339
I don't really remember it so long ago

1106
00:45:46,490 --> 00:45:44,579
but he saw them oh yes most fairly but I

1107
00:45:47,270 --> 00:45:46,500
saw them there's no doubt about that at

1108
00:45:53,030 --> 00:45:47,280
all

1109
00:45:55,190 --> 00:45:53,040
well when we spotted them we were of

1110
00:45:56,630 --> 00:45:55,200
about uh 14

1111
00:45:59,990 --> 00:45:56,640
000 feet I think

1112
00:46:02,150 --> 00:46:00,000
and we continue the climb until we've

1113
00:46:03,530 --> 00:46:02,160
got to uh 35

1114
00:46:08,990 --> 00:46:03,540
000.

1115
00:46:11,150 --> 00:46:09,000
um when we just were trying to explain

1116
00:46:13,550 --> 00:46:11,160
um what we were looking at we were

1117
00:46:16,550 --> 00:46:13,560
trying to

1118
00:46:19,910 --> 00:46:16,560
tell ourselves that there was some funny

1119
00:46:23,809 --> 00:46:19,920
light Reflections or refractions in the

1120
00:46:24,470 --> 00:46:23,819
windscreen or in the in the canopy but

1121
00:46:26,329 --> 00:46:24,480
um

1122
00:46:29,210 --> 00:46:26,339
clearly it wasn't we were saying

1123
00:46:34,069 --> 00:46:32,210
was there any possibility that you were

1124
00:46:37,069 --> 00:46:34,079
mistaken that you were seeing a

1125
00:46:39,950 --> 00:46:37,079
reflection for example

1126
00:46:44,270 --> 00:46:39,960
um no I don't honestly think so we we

1127
00:46:47,089 --> 00:46:44,280
tried very hard to explain away uh what

1128
00:46:49,790 --> 00:46:47,099
we were looking at and uh but there's no

1129
00:46:51,650 --> 00:46:49,800
there's no way we could do that

1130
00:46:54,530 --> 00:46:51,660
um there was there was something there

1131
00:46:57,290 --> 00:46:54,540
that absolutely no doubt about it it was

1132
00:47:03,950 --> 00:46:57,300
not a reflection

1133
00:47:09,109 --> 00:47:06,890
okay try some more

1134
00:47:12,349 --> 00:47:09,119
when you saw them

1135
00:47:16,670 --> 00:47:12,359
what did you feel right

1136
00:47:20,990 --> 00:47:16,680
um at the time immediately no I I didn't

1137
00:47:23,150 --> 00:47:21,000
feel frightened I did subsequently

1138
00:47:24,650 --> 00:47:23,160
um feel that we were looking at

1139
00:47:25,550 --> 00:47:24,660
something that really we shouldn't be

1140
00:47:27,410 --> 00:47:25,560
seeing

1141
00:47:29,510 --> 00:47:27,420
and I remember

1142
00:47:33,470 --> 00:47:29,520
being told on

1143
00:47:35,690 --> 00:47:33,480
on Landing by um either as Grand crew or

1144
00:47:39,109 --> 00:47:35,700
somebody who came out to the aircraft to

1145
00:47:44,329 --> 00:47:39,119
meet us that um I looked fairly shaken

1146
00:47:44,339 --> 00:47:48,589
thank you very much

1147
00:47:52,309 --> 00:47:50,089
nope

1148
00:47:54,410 --> 00:47:52,319
there we go yeah I've just realized

1149
00:47:57,349 --> 00:47:54,420
actually of the two recordings I sent

1150
00:47:59,390 --> 00:47:57,359
you that was a BBC interview yeah right

1151
00:48:03,170 --> 00:47:59,400
because we are to acknowledge thank you

1152
00:48:05,450 --> 00:48:03,180
BBC but it was a for a radio 4 Series I

1153
00:48:08,329 --> 00:48:05,460
did called Britain's X-Files back in

1154
00:48:10,609 --> 00:48:08,339
2001 and they they interviewed McSweeney

1155
00:48:12,349 --> 00:48:10,619
as well and I love that bit at the end

1156
00:48:14,030 --> 00:48:12,359
where he talks about when he landed that

1157
00:48:16,010 --> 00:48:14,040
the guy comes out and says you look like

1158
00:48:17,930 --> 00:48:16,020
you've seen a ghost because yeah he did

1159
00:48:19,970 --> 00:48:17,940
he did tell me that he thought it was

1160
00:48:22,010 --> 00:48:19,980
something Supernatural not mechanical

1161
00:48:24,349 --> 00:48:22,020
that they'd see yeah which is

1162
00:48:25,970 --> 00:48:24,359
interesting yeah so sorry about the

1163
00:48:27,170 --> 00:48:25,980
slight technical issues there guys what

1164
00:48:29,630 --> 00:48:27,180
I'm gonna do

1165
00:48:32,270 --> 00:48:29,640
um after the live stream ends is I'm

1166
00:48:34,190 --> 00:48:32,280
going to add that five minute clip to

1167
00:48:35,870 --> 00:48:34,200
the Google Drive where the full length

1168
00:48:37,550 --> 00:48:35,880
ones are so you you don't have to search

1169
00:48:38,690 --> 00:48:37,560
that out if you wanted to hear if you

1170
00:48:40,609 --> 00:48:38,700
missed the start because I was playing

1171
00:48:42,050 --> 00:48:40,619
it quite faint I'll just add that to the

1172
00:48:44,450 --> 00:48:42,060
folder so you can grab that five minute

1173
00:48:46,370 --> 00:48:44,460
one as well so the joys of live

1174
00:48:48,670 --> 00:48:46,380
streaming we don't always get it right

1175
00:48:51,290 --> 00:48:48,680
so thank you for your patience everyone

1176
00:48:52,790 --> 00:48:51,300
so yeah I mean that was incredible it's

1177
00:48:55,069 --> 00:48:52,800
always incredible to hear it from them

1178
00:48:57,589 --> 00:48:55,079
isn't it directly you can hear the tone

1179
00:48:59,390 --> 00:48:57,599
of their voice and you know they're

1180
00:49:02,030 --> 00:48:59,400
getting questioned about could you have

1181
00:49:04,010 --> 00:49:02,040
been mistaken uh yeah so I just find it

1182
00:49:05,750 --> 00:49:04,020
incredible

1183
00:49:08,329 --> 00:49:05,760
yeah and and you know we were saying

1184
00:49:11,390 --> 00:49:08,339
about the the top Cliff story got into

1185
00:49:13,309 --> 00:49:11,400
the media but it really is just hit and

1186
00:49:14,750 --> 00:49:13,319
miss what gets it reported and what

1187
00:49:16,730 --> 00:49:14,760
didn't because the little rissington

1188
00:49:18,770 --> 00:49:16,740
case which is even more spectacular the

1189
00:49:20,450 --> 00:49:18,780
one we've just been listening to didn't

1190
00:49:23,210 --> 00:49:20,460
get into the media

1191
00:49:26,569 --> 00:49:23,220
so that came that we actually got to

1192
00:49:30,109 --> 00:49:26,579
hear about that in 1998 I think he was

1193
00:49:32,329 --> 00:49:30,119
when um Peter Horsley who was the equary

1194
00:49:33,890 --> 00:49:32,339
for Prince Philip

1195
00:49:37,190 --> 00:49:33,900
um the Duke of Edinburgh who everyone

1196
00:49:40,430 --> 00:49:37,200
will know had an interest in UFOs

1197
00:49:42,589 --> 00:49:40,440
um he wrote by um a book all about his

1198
00:49:44,630 --> 00:49:42,599
life and in it there's a chapter on the

1199
00:49:46,450 --> 00:49:44,640
time that he investigated flying sources

1200
00:49:49,430 --> 00:49:46,460
for Prince Philippa Buckingham Palace

1201
00:49:51,230 --> 00:49:49,440
and he talked about the case in that

1202
00:49:53,089 --> 00:49:51,240
book and that was the first time anyone

1203
00:49:55,910 --> 00:49:53,099
had heard about it so when I interviewed

1204
00:49:58,010 --> 00:49:55,920
uh Peter Horsley

1205
00:49:59,270 --> 00:49:58,020
um he took he gave me the full details

1206
00:50:01,010 --> 00:49:59,280
about it and said you need to speak to

1207
00:50:02,390 --> 00:50:01,020
Mick swinig so that's how I track down

1208
00:50:05,150 --> 00:50:02,400
Mick Swinney because no one had heard

1209
00:50:07,069 --> 00:50:05,160
about his case fortunately Meek was

1210
00:50:10,430 --> 00:50:07,079
still alive and very articulate and

1211
00:50:13,130 --> 00:50:10,440
wanted to talk about it uh and around

1212
00:50:14,809 --> 00:50:13,140
that sort of time 2000 2001 I got to

1213
00:50:18,770 --> 00:50:14,819
speak to all these incredible people

1214
00:50:20,630 --> 00:50:18,780
including Stan Hubbard and he's the guy

1215
00:50:22,550 --> 00:50:20,640
who's the test pilot that we saw right

1216
00:50:24,589 --> 00:50:22,560
yeah right at the beginning and perhaps

1217
00:50:26,750 --> 00:50:24,599
this is where the most bizarre thing of

1218
00:50:28,790 --> 00:50:26,760
all that that we were talking about

1219
00:50:29,930 --> 00:50:28,800
Vinnie before the program I should

1220
00:50:33,050 --> 00:50:29,940
mention

1221
00:50:35,990 --> 00:50:33,060
that Stan Hubbard who was one of the res

1222
00:50:38,569 --> 00:50:36,000
top test pilots of the time who sought

1223
00:50:40,670 --> 00:50:38,579
had like a very close encounter with

1224
00:50:42,349 --> 00:50:40,680
effectively a flying saucer and we can

1225
00:50:43,790 --> 00:50:42,359
show you the drawing he made of what he

1226
00:50:45,829 --> 00:50:43,800
saw or the artist's impression of it

1227
00:50:47,390 --> 00:50:45,839
this is the guy who saw

1228
00:50:50,630 --> 00:50:47,400
um this thing on the Airfield at

1229
00:50:52,370 --> 00:50:50,640
farnborough in 1950.

1230
00:50:53,750 --> 00:50:52,380
um now I've I've got two images haven't

1231
00:50:54,829 --> 00:50:53,760
I I've got the one that hit the the

1232
00:50:57,349 --> 00:50:54,839
black and white one but then I've got

1233
00:50:59,510 --> 00:50:57,359
that color one which one yeah well just

1234
00:51:01,549 --> 00:50:59,520
show both because there's the black and

1235
00:51:03,770 --> 00:51:01,559
white drawing that he did for class van

1236
00:51:06,349 --> 00:51:03,780
in of you for Sweden

1237
00:51:08,990 --> 00:51:06,359
yeah that that's that's I mean what he

1238
00:51:11,210 --> 00:51:09,000
saw again similar to the object that was

1239
00:51:13,250 --> 00:51:11,220
seen at top Cliff like a discus shape

1240
00:51:14,990 --> 00:51:13,260
that's how the way he described it to me

1241
00:51:17,210 --> 00:51:15,000
was almost like you know back in the

1242
00:51:19,370 --> 00:51:17,220
1950s when we had sports events at

1243
00:51:20,870 --> 00:51:19,380
school and people used to throw like an

1244
00:51:23,150 --> 00:51:20,880
old-fashioned discus you know like in

1245
00:51:25,130 --> 00:51:23,160
the Olympic Games a bit like that and

1246
00:51:27,290 --> 00:51:25,140
this thing sort of approached him broad

1247
00:51:28,790 --> 00:51:27,300
daylight he was standing on the Airfield

1248
00:51:30,890 --> 00:51:28,800
at farnborough at the Royal aircraft

1249
00:51:32,750 --> 00:51:30,900
establishment and this thing it was like

1250
00:51:34,490 --> 00:51:32,760
it was like air Matt how did you

1251
00:51:36,829 --> 00:51:34,500
describe it like well as it says they're

1252
00:51:39,470 --> 00:51:36,839
like a mother of pearl and it was sort

1253
00:51:42,349 --> 00:51:39,480
of moving like this or in a weird sort

1254
00:51:44,210 --> 00:51:42,359
of way again it's similar to how the

1255
00:51:46,549 --> 00:51:44,220
object at top Cliff was described you

1256
00:51:50,089 --> 00:51:46,559
know like dropped like a Falling Leaf

1257
00:51:52,730 --> 00:51:50,099
which is is not how mechanical aircraft

1258
00:51:55,549 --> 00:51:52,740
behave and yet this is how this object

1259
00:51:57,650 --> 00:51:55,559
was behaving and he saw it again several

1260
00:51:59,690 --> 00:51:57,660
weeks later when they were waiting for

1261
00:52:02,390 --> 00:51:59,700
Wimpy Wade who was one of the RAS top

1262
00:52:04,190 --> 00:52:02,400
test pilots to come into land and this

1263
00:52:07,549 --> 00:52:04,200
time he was with a whole bunch of RAF

1264
00:52:09,710 --> 00:52:07,559
officers some quite senior people and he

1265
00:52:10,970 --> 00:52:09,720
he said it was pandemonium because they

1266
00:52:12,410 --> 00:52:10,980
were running around trying to get

1267
00:52:16,069 --> 00:52:12,420
binoculars and this thing was like

1268
00:52:17,809 --> 00:52:16,079
zooming around in the sky and he his his

1269
00:52:19,309 --> 00:52:17,819
story was featured in The Flying source

1270
00:52:21,230 --> 00:52:19,319
of working party report which was the

1271
00:52:23,510 --> 00:52:21,240
thing that was um seen by Winston

1272
00:52:26,210 --> 00:52:23,520
Churchill now the really bizarre thing

1273
00:52:27,890 --> 00:52:26,220
about this was I didn't realize this

1274
00:52:29,210 --> 00:52:27,900
until a few weeks ago when I started

1275
00:52:31,910 --> 00:52:29,220
putting minutes together for this

1276
00:52:35,109 --> 00:52:31,920
program it turns out that you know I

1277
00:52:38,210 --> 00:52:35,119
mentioned that the 20th of September

1278
00:52:41,450 --> 00:52:38,220
1952 was the 12th anniversary of the

1279
00:52:43,670 --> 00:52:41,460
Battle of Britain yeah now Stan Hubbard

1280
00:52:46,910 --> 00:52:43,680
was in Yorkshire

1281
00:52:49,910 --> 00:52:46,920
uh he was in 92 Squadron and he was

1282
00:52:51,849 --> 00:52:49,920
leading some of these um displays flying

1283
00:52:54,710 --> 00:52:51,859
meteors

1284
00:52:56,569 --> 00:52:54,720
for the Battle of Britain display on the

1285
00:52:59,329 --> 00:52:56,579
very day that the top Cliff incident

1286
00:53:01,609 --> 00:52:59,339
happened now do you think that is a

1287
00:53:04,130 --> 00:53:01,619
bizarre coincidence that he's the guy

1288
00:53:07,430 --> 00:53:04,140
who saw this flying source of two years

1289
00:53:10,250 --> 00:53:07,440
earlier on two occasions and the days in

1290
00:53:13,910 --> 00:53:10,260
Yorkshire flying around in the same

1291
00:53:15,890 --> 00:53:13,920
vicinity for the Battle of Britain day

1292
00:53:18,349 --> 00:53:15,900
something very similar appears in the

1293
00:53:19,130 --> 00:53:18,359
sky over RAF topcliffe now is that the

1294
00:53:21,470 --> 00:53:19,140
case

1295
00:53:23,210 --> 00:53:21,480
that you know there's something about

1296
00:53:25,910 --> 00:53:23,220
Stan Hubbard that attracted flying

1297
00:53:28,370 --> 00:53:25,920
sources or is it is it a complete

1298
00:53:31,250 --> 00:53:28,380
coincidence but to me I just find that

1299
00:53:33,470 --> 00:53:31,260
absolutely baffling and mind-blowing and

1300
00:53:35,690 --> 00:53:33,480
I just wish Anna was still around and I

1301
00:53:37,910 --> 00:53:35,700
could ask him about it because it didn't

1302
00:53:39,650 --> 00:53:37,920
occur to me at the time I interviewed

1303
00:53:42,589 --> 00:53:39,660
him to ask him about this he must have

1304
00:53:44,630 --> 00:53:42,599
known about it yeah absolutely you'd

1305
00:53:46,730 --> 00:53:44,640
think that's that is an incredible

1306
00:53:48,290 --> 00:53:46,740
coincidence if that's the case but and

1307
00:53:50,510 --> 00:53:48,300
then yeah I mean we have heard many

1308
00:53:52,670 --> 00:53:50,520
people over the many years talk about

1309
00:53:54,170 --> 00:53:52,680
certain people do attract these kind of

1310
00:53:56,390 --> 00:53:54,180
things I mean yeah

1311
00:53:58,130 --> 00:53:56,400
it's incredible and I'm just going to

1312
00:54:00,250 --> 00:53:58,140
move on to this other image so let me

1313
00:54:04,430 --> 00:54:00,260
just that that's his head

1314
00:54:07,130 --> 00:54:04,440
in the cockpit uh so this one yeah yeah

1315
00:54:08,569 --> 00:54:07,140
is it Andreas Olson who did the um this

1316
00:54:11,390 --> 00:54:08,579
is an artist's impression that was done

1317
00:54:14,390 --> 00:54:11,400
for the UFO Sweden Richard Richard

1318
00:54:15,650 --> 00:54:14,400
Svenson oh Richard Svenson yeah

1319
00:54:18,170 --> 00:54:15,660
um which I think is quite a good

1320
00:54:19,849 --> 00:54:18,180
depiction of of what um Stan Hubbard

1321
00:54:22,010 --> 00:54:19,859
said he saw so this thing this is

1322
00:54:24,290 --> 00:54:22,020
approaching the Airfield and he actually

1323
00:54:25,549 --> 00:54:24,300
he was standing on farnborough Airfield

1324
00:54:27,589 --> 00:54:25,559
for anyone who's been there for the

1325
00:54:30,410 --> 00:54:27,599
farnborough air display oh yes this is

1326
00:54:33,230 --> 00:54:30,420
early one August morning clear sky there

1327
00:54:34,670 --> 00:54:33,240
was only him there and he got sunglasses

1328
00:54:36,410 --> 00:54:34,680
on he said and he said he saw this thing

1329
00:54:37,430 --> 00:54:36,420
come towards him he took his sunglasses

1330
00:54:39,890 --> 00:54:37,440
off

1331
00:54:41,690 --> 00:54:39,900
thinking am I hallucinating and he said

1332
00:54:44,030 --> 00:54:41,700
he just approached him and he was like

1333
00:54:45,290 --> 00:54:44,040
spinning round and he could he could

1334
00:54:45,890 --> 00:54:45,300
smell

1335
00:54:49,250 --> 00:54:45,900
um

1336
00:54:50,450 --> 00:54:49,260
OZO coming from it and like this fizzing

1337
00:54:52,730 --> 00:54:50,460
sort of lie almost from another

1338
00:54:54,770 --> 00:54:52,740
electricity um like a huge electric

1339
00:54:57,950 --> 00:54:54,780
power station he could he could hear

1340
00:54:59,930 --> 00:54:57,960
this fizzing noise coming from it and he

1341
00:55:02,630 --> 00:54:59,940
just zoomed off into the distance and he

1342
00:55:04,309 --> 00:55:02,640
said he he was definitely something not

1343
00:55:06,290 --> 00:55:04,319
made on this Earth that's the only way

1344
00:55:08,690 --> 00:55:06,300
he could describe it and I do think he's

1345
00:55:10,370 --> 00:55:08,700
he's his story is probably

1346
00:55:12,829 --> 00:55:10,380
one of the most convincing I've ever

1347
00:55:14,630 --> 00:55:12,839
heard I mean I'm a skeptic about these

1348
00:55:16,790 --> 00:55:14,640
things but I can't explain it and then

1349
00:55:18,770 --> 00:55:16,800
whatever it was came back

1350
00:55:20,990 --> 00:55:18,780
in September of that year and then put

1351
00:55:22,970 --> 00:55:21,000
on this amazing aerobatic display in

1352
00:55:26,630 --> 00:55:22,980
front of the control tower in full view

1353
00:55:28,549 --> 00:55:26,640
of all these um RAF officials and I

1354
00:55:30,829 --> 00:55:28,559
think that must be

1355
00:55:33,710 --> 00:55:30,839
What marshall Chadwell is referring to

1356
00:55:35,870 --> 00:55:33,720
in his memo because he talks about a lot

1357
00:55:37,609 --> 00:55:35,880
of RAF officials seeing this thing and I

1358
00:55:40,430 --> 00:55:37,619
think he's got that mixed up with top

1359
00:55:42,410 --> 00:55:40,440
Cliff somehow so he's combining these

1360
00:55:45,290 --> 00:55:42,420
two stories but they do there does seem

1361
00:55:48,410 --> 00:55:45,300
to be a link between what Stan Hubbard

1362
00:55:50,030 --> 00:55:48,420
saw in 1950 and the top Cliff incident

1363
00:55:51,829 --> 00:55:50,040
absolutely and you mentioned there about

1364
00:55:54,410 --> 00:55:51,839
yourself being a skeptic I think that's

1365
00:55:56,450 --> 00:55:54,420
one thing that I I really want to

1366
00:55:58,309 --> 00:55:56,460
make a point of is that if

1367
00:55:59,930 --> 00:55:58,319
we've talked about these cases just

1368
00:56:01,730 --> 00:55:59,940
today we talked about the bent Waters

1369
00:56:04,730 --> 00:56:01,740
Lake and Heath on a previous show and

1370
00:56:07,250 --> 00:56:04,740
yeah you admittedly there is no way of

1371
00:56:09,349 --> 00:56:07,260
explaining these things from a skeptical

1372
00:56:11,089 --> 00:56:09,359
point of view so I mean I'm sure there

1373
00:56:13,130 --> 00:56:11,099
will be some debunkers out there who

1374
00:56:15,410 --> 00:56:13,140
will have a field day with these kind of

1375
00:56:16,730 --> 00:56:15,420
cases but you know this is the way I

1376
00:56:19,130 --> 00:56:16,740
think these cases

1377
00:56:20,450 --> 00:56:19,140
a are really important and B they almost

1378
00:56:21,890 --> 00:56:20,460
seem like they're going to be forgotten

1379
00:56:24,230 --> 00:56:21,900
about if we don't keep talking about

1380
00:56:26,089 --> 00:56:24,240
them and presenting them because they do

1381
00:56:27,950 --> 00:56:26,099
have relevance and they bear resemblance

1382
00:56:30,410 --> 00:56:27,960
to a lot of cases that we see in modern

1383
00:56:31,549 --> 00:56:30,420
times absolutely you know so I you know

1384
00:56:33,290 --> 00:56:31,559
I think that's why these are so

1385
00:56:35,150 --> 00:56:33,300
important so

1386
00:56:38,750 --> 00:56:35,160
yeah I just uh yeah is there anything

1387
00:56:41,690 --> 00:56:38,760
else are we missing everything probably

1388
00:56:44,510 --> 00:56:41,700
ought to give Ed Rupp out yeah because

1389
00:56:47,030 --> 00:56:44,520
um Ed Rupa was captained repel of the US

1390
00:56:48,950 --> 00:56:47,040
Air Force he was the head of Project

1391
00:56:49,910 --> 00:56:48,960
Blue Book at the time this is during the

1392
00:56:51,890 --> 00:56:49,920
period when there was all these

1393
00:56:54,049 --> 00:56:51,900
Washington sightings and that I just

1394
00:56:57,470 --> 00:56:54,059
think it's interesting just to um

1395
00:56:59,329 --> 00:56:57,480
mention what he says about areas yeah

1396
00:57:01,490 --> 00:56:59,339
um and he wrote This Book it's

1397
00:57:04,490 --> 00:57:01,500
effectively his Memoir of his time on

1398
00:57:07,549 --> 00:57:04,500
Project Blue Book in 1950s this was

1399
00:57:10,430 --> 00:57:07,559
published in 1956 and he actually talks

1400
00:57:13,010 --> 00:57:10,440
about the top Cliff incident in there

1401
00:57:14,630 --> 00:57:13,020
um and he he says that I don't know

1402
00:57:17,870 --> 00:57:14,640
whether there's any significance in this

1403
00:57:20,750 --> 00:57:17,880
but just just to quote him he says that

1404
00:57:22,790 --> 00:57:20,760
before main brace he said that someone

1405
00:57:24,710 --> 00:57:22,800
in the Pentagon had half seriously

1406
00:57:27,109 --> 00:57:24,720
mentioned that Naval intelligence should

1407
00:57:29,630 --> 00:57:27,119
keep an eye out for UFOs during

1408
00:57:31,370 --> 00:57:29,640
operation main brace

1409
00:57:33,530 --> 00:57:31,380
um he didn't know whether this guy was

1410
00:57:36,109 --> 00:57:33,540
joking or not but he doesn't it is an

1411
00:57:38,030 --> 00:57:36,119
intriguing little anecdote that almost

1412
00:57:39,470 --> 00:57:38,040
sort of as if they were putting on a

1413
00:57:41,990 --> 00:57:39,480
demonstration

1414
00:57:43,430 --> 00:57:42,000
whether it's the CIA that was putting on

1415
00:57:45,109 --> 00:57:43,440
the demonstration or not we don't know

1416
00:57:47,569 --> 00:57:45,119
but there was a I mean we talked about

1417
00:57:49,910 --> 00:57:47,579
top Cliff but there was at least two or

1418
00:57:52,190 --> 00:57:49,920
three sightings from the ships as well

1419
00:57:54,109 --> 00:57:52,200
um the U.S um aircraft carrier Franklin

1420
00:57:55,849 --> 00:57:54,119
Roosevelt

1421
00:57:57,170 --> 00:57:55,859
um there was some photographs taken of

1422
00:57:58,970 --> 00:57:57,180
something that had been seen in the sky

1423
00:58:00,530 --> 00:57:58,980
from from the aircraft carrier as well

1424
00:58:02,510 --> 00:58:00,540
which have never been published which I

1425
00:58:05,390 --> 00:58:02,520
think is are in the Blue Book file

1426
00:58:08,210 --> 00:58:05,400
somewhere but he he says in his book

1427
00:58:10,910 --> 00:58:08,220
that he talks about the top cliff

1428
00:58:13,849 --> 00:58:10,920
case and he says

1429
00:58:16,910 --> 00:58:13,859
classic line it was these sightings I.E

1430
00:58:19,490 --> 00:58:16,920
top Cliff I was told by an RAF exchange

1431
00:58:22,010 --> 00:58:19,500
intelligence officer in the Pentagon

1432
00:58:24,710 --> 00:58:22,020
that caused the RAF the Royal Air Force

1433
00:58:27,650 --> 00:58:24,720
to officially recognize the UFO

1434
00:58:30,230 --> 00:58:27,660
so that was 70 years ago it's the 70th

1435
00:58:32,450 --> 00:58:30,240
Anniversary so effectively all the sorts

1436
00:58:35,390 --> 00:58:32,460
of military interest in this subject in

1437
00:58:36,710 --> 00:58:35,400
the UK stems from these incidents that

1438
00:58:37,910 --> 00:58:36,720
we've been talking about tonight and

1439
00:58:40,490 --> 00:58:37,920
that's why I think they're so important

1440
00:58:43,130 --> 00:58:40,500
and you know it's the 70th Anniversary

1441
00:58:45,349 --> 00:58:43,140
yeah absolutely I mean I always learned

1442
00:58:46,970 --> 00:58:45,359
so much when we you know we we talk

1443
00:58:48,470 --> 00:58:46,980
about these cases for weeks before we do

1444
00:58:50,510 --> 00:58:48,480
the show and I you know you send me the

1445
00:58:51,589 --> 00:58:50,520
documents and then I go and do some

1446
00:58:53,690 --> 00:58:51,599
digging and they are they're just

1447
00:58:56,270 --> 00:58:53,700
absolutely fascinating so you know I

1448
00:58:58,609 --> 00:58:56,280
really do appreciate them

1449
00:59:01,130 --> 00:58:58,619
um so yeah I think that's probably it

1450
00:59:02,930 --> 00:59:01,140
one thing I will say which uh

1451
00:59:04,549 --> 00:59:02,940
you know it I'd like you to come back

1452
00:59:05,870 --> 00:59:04,559
and we'll continue doing this but I

1453
00:59:08,270 --> 00:59:05,880
think before we touch upon any other

1454
00:59:09,770 --> 00:59:08,280
cases I think the next show we do

1455
00:59:11,809 --> 00:59:09,780
together should really be looking at the

1456
00:59:13,609 --> 00:59:11,819
condiment report yeah it should really

1457
00:59:16,670 --> 00:59:13,619
isn't it because I don't think that I've

1458
00:59:19,609 --> 00:59:16,680
not seen an in-depth analysis breakdown

1459
00:59:21,349 --> 00:59:19,619
because you know you you were the one

1460
00:59:23,030 --> 00:59:21,359
that got the whole thing released so you

1461
00:59:24,530 --> 00:59:23,040
know we got that aspect of the story and

1462
00:59:28,309 --> 00:59:24,540
then you know I'm sure you know it

1463
00:59:30,289 --> 00:59:28,319
inside out as well yeah um and also what

1464
00:59:31,970 --> 00:59:30,299
potentially is missing from it or what's

1465
00:59:34,309 --> 00:59:31,980
redacted in it you know some good

1466
00:59:36,470 --> 00:59:34,319
guesses or estimates as to what it could

1467
00:59:37,970 --> 00:59:36,480
be so you know maybe in a month or in a

1468
00:59:39,950 --> 00:59:37,980
few weeks time we can do that show

1469
00:59:43,329 --> 00:59:39,960
because yeah there's a lot in that

1470
00:59:49,309 --> 00:59:46,549
just pick a few things out to talk about

1471
00:59:50,750 --> 00:59:49,319
and there is the whole um I mean we have

1472
00:59:52,430 --> 00:59:50,760
actually talked about this before the

1473
00:59:55,010 --> 00:59:52,440
the the

1474
00:59:56,329 --> 00:59:55,020
um they have lost it it's been destroyed

1475
00:59:58,069 --> 00:59:56,339
apparently

1476
01:00:01,270 --> 00:59:58,079
yeah we'll get into that as well because

1477
01:00:04,130 --> 01:00:01,280
that is awesome yeah

1478
01:00:06,289 --> 01:00:04,140
so yeah well listen David as always

1479
01:00:08,390 --> 01:00:06,299
thank you so much I really appreciate it

1480
01:00:10,370 --> 01:00:08,400
and yeah everyone in the live chat I

1481
01:00:12,829 --> 01:00:10,380
hope you enjoyed it even with a smart

1482
01:00:14,329 --> 01:00:12,839
slight technical hitch there but I will

1483
01:00:16,430 --> 01:00:14,339
add the five minute video to the Google

1484
01:00:19,250 --> 01:00:16,440
Drive which is linked below for all the

1485
01:00:22,190 --> 01:00:19,260
audio from the the Swinney cross case

1486
01:00:24,170 --> 01:00:22,200
yeah I'm gonna be back next week uh go

1487
01:00:25,970 --> 01:00:24,180
and follow my social medias to find out

1488
01:00:26,930 --> 01:00:25,980
all the dates and times for my upcoming

1489
01:00:28,549 --> 01:00:26,940
shows

1490
01:00:30,530 --> 01:00:28,559
I think that covers everything so yeah

1491
01:00:32,630 --> 01:00:30,540
thanks for inviting me on and I hope